What's happened to Islam?

Discussion in 'Islam' started by iBrian, Jul 25, 2007.

  1. dailogue is the best

    dailogue is the best New member

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    in myopinion, the matter has nothing to do with Islam...It has to do with the political and the sociological environment of Muslims....Muslims live in poverty, unemployment, illetracy,ignorance,oppresion...all these are the reasons behind violence in the Muslim world....it has nothing to do with Isalm....
    i think Muslims are most of the time prejudiced...anything thety do, people contributed to Islam....bc, unfortunately,Muslims remain in the sight of others primitive and violent people...they contribute these traits to Islam out of ignorance and prejudice
    when the Right Party in France caused terrible violence in France, scientists contributed it to the sociological environment....but when we come to Muslims,everything is contributed to Islam....
    Moroever,the terrible mistake non Muslims do is that they read Islam in Muslims doings...and if Muslims do the same and read Christians doings{crusades, colonialization,invasion of Afghanestan,Iraq..},and contribute them to Christianity,they will fall in the same mistake.bt,Muslims have a deep idea of Christianity as Muslims believe that Judaism,Christianity and Islam are religions from one God...they are religions of peace and justice...other bad doings of Jewish,Christians,and Muslims represent but the personality of their doers in relation to their environment...
    hope this makes things clear............
     
  2. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    That is quite a sweeping statement and I am afraid I have to disagree. Most of the fundamental Islamic terrorists are well educated and come from at least middle class families. Just look at Osama & Co, you don't get much more wealthy than them.

    I know many very poor, illiterate Muslims and they would never dream of such attrocities, they are much more interested in day to day worries like where the next meal is coming from and will the donkeys sore foot be ok.



    Here I agree, it is to do with power and wealth.



    Who are we prejudiced against or do you mean people are prejudiced against Muslims?



    Well some of that ignorance comes from within the Muslim community itself. When you have Muslims marching in streets demanding the death of a teacher because she allowed children to call a teddy bear Mohammad (which is not a sacred name) then Muslims must expect some backlash and prejudice. Until all Muslims feel responsible for actions such as these and speak out loudly to stop them then the mistrust will continue.



    I think that is because some Muslims use Islam to defend their actions. When people shout Allahu Akbar while cutting off someones head with a dagger and reading verses of the Quran to justify their actions then of course non Muslims will be confused about Islam. We also have many scholars that totally disagree on many issues, some state very clearly that suicide bombing is jihad, while others point out that the Quran forbids suicide. It confuses the hell out of me, so what chance do non Muslims have of understanding what is and is not Islam?

    I absolutely agree with this statement but we have to understand that any faith can be twisted to suit a political purpose and Islam is being hijacked by radical extremists.
     
  3. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Admin

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  4. dailogue is the best

    dailogue is the best New member

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    salam dear MW,
    first of all, i would like to express my admiration towards you. you are so nice,open minded,friendly,objective,kind,hard working,truth seeker person...these are some of many traits i fell you enjoy whenever i read your replies.:).Actually,i m very happy that you commented on my reply....:)

    you said:"Most of the fundamental Islamic terrorists are well educated and come from at least middle class families. Just look at Osama & Co, you don't get much more wealthy than them." I dont deny what you said here, but let me ask you: Can Osama give a clearcut Quranic verse which permits him what he did? yes,he can pretend,and non muslims may attribute what he did to Islam, but when we look at the teachings of Islam,we find that what he did is A GREAT ATROCITY. Here a question arises itself: what is the ideology that Osama, if it isnt Islamic? Olivier Roy is a research director at the French National Center for Scientific Research (CNRS) states that Osama has no Islamic project, and that his main concern is to attack US in its capitalist manifestations(the world trade center i.e.) to the degree that Olivier makes a parallell btween communists and Qaeda..so,the idea of ignorance and poverty as causes of Islamic voilence cant be applied on Qaeda which has other objectives,far from the Islamic ones...
    you said:"I know many very poor, illiterate Muslims and they would never dream of such attrocities, they are much more interested in day to day worries like where the next meal is coming from and will the donkeys sore foot be ok." yes,MW, i do agree with you that there many illeterate Muslims who have immunity against being brainstormed, but here i make a big difference between alphabetism and ignorance....there are many people who are illeterat, but they are conscious and have a deep knowledege of their religion(good upbringing), so, here we v the problem of poverty alone, bt when we v both ignorance and poverty, here we v a problem....when ignorance marries poverty then they give birth to the mother of calamities...

    you said:"I think that is because some Muslims use Islam to defend their actions."...I totally agree with you...Non Muslims will not learn about Islam through the Quran or Sunnah as they ll learn about it through Muslims doings...Muslims have to be aware of this fact...they have to know that they are doing so much harm to Islam when they behave badly....Muslims have to be aware that they are ambassadors of their relegion through actions and not through words...at last, actions speak louder than words...
     
  5. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    wa aleykum salaam

    I am very flattered but fear my thoughts are far too simple to deserve such praise, I simply speak as I find (sometimes correctly and sometimes incorrectly).



    I thought a lot about your response and my mind had to consider the taliban in Afghanistan - yes I agree completely, when that level of ignorance meets poverty it is a recipe for disaster. Add in a few men with desires for wealth and power and boom the place erupts.

    Osama is a product of the Saudi radicals and my fear is often that while the western governments are bombing Iraq they are also befriending Saudi, where many of these unacceptable and unIslamic practices are coming from in my opinion. I accept Osama clearly is defficient in his knowledge of Islam and the world would be a better place if he stopped fighting and started studying, however when he flies the flag of Islam who but true
    Muslims can call him to account?

    The difficulty we are left with is that both of these groups 'claim' to be the true Islam and commit such attrocities in the name of Allah. Non Muslims can hardly be blamed for believing they are in fact actng as true Muslims.

    The problem is what can we do about it? I love to speak with non Muslims and explain Islam, in it's true light but when I speak on Muslims forums my heart sinks. There are British born Muslims who are verbally praising the Taliban and when I ask for any Quranic evidence that women must live behind blackened windows I am told I am not really a Muslim and do not understand. This troubles me greatly, that young minds are so closed and being so driven by things they do not even understand and would reject if they ever actually visited any of these places.
     
  6. greymare

    greymare New Member

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    this is why we love tohear your thoughts and opinions sally, your heart is muslim but clearly you respond to us that are not. we love you for it.
     
  7. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    Oh thank you Grey, what a lovely comment and I love you too. I just accept people for what we are .... fallable, there is good and bad in every society, religion, race, gender, etc. I also trust to the very centre of my being that Allah knows this better than anyone and will be just and fair on the day we all return to Him.

    Salam my friend
     
  8. greymare

    greymare New Member

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    ya see, thats just it isnt it. we are all good. lets just try to be good together.
    salam(dunno what it means but it sound soooo cool. ) to you 2
     
  9. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    salam means peace (just sounds so much nicer in Arabic!!) :D
     
  10. islamis4u

    islamis4u Vision To Spread Islam

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    Its a bit difficult question.............Firstly as i live in Pakistan so may be i know better the reason behind as i gone through this topic most of you live non-asiatic countries and other most in middle east, the point is that suicidal attacks in Pakistan are not because of the sects i may clear you that they may differences between them but no suicidal attacks are here in Pakistan because of sects. Secondly that the suicidal attacks are occuring because of politics you know Benazir's assisnation was political not by you extremest rather i admit their had suicidal attacks but most of them were done by the political agents and some are made to happen so, you know which ever bomb explode in Pakistan our media immediately says that it was a suicidal attack. Right most of the bombs are used are remote controlled or time bombs. who is doing this? I may tell you America have to play major role in it the bomb attacks which is not suicidal is mostly done by Americans you know why to destroy Pakistan, you would be now a days listening that America is trying to launch an attack on Iran,and you would be also seeing that America is trying to start pointing out that Pakistan's Nuclear weponary is now no more secure we should help them clean the militants, so that America can also have go on Pakistan so that the only Muslim country with nuclear is not good for Israel. America after attacking so many countries is making Israel strong and Muslims weak you would also have known how big amount America have for Israel in the budget why? America is having two things one is the reason to attack Pakistan and other is to create civil war by it between army and whom you call extremest so i say you its not because of religion but mostly because of Poltics. About very few suicidal attacks which you call are conducted by to whom you called extremest have more two factors one is that on the say of America our President have sent army to our tribal area to kill the people who are linked with Taliban. Second is that the people or area of a people want to have shariah so for that they are fighting but our will never allow to flourish shariah. The thing our country is the only country which was made in the name of Islam and they want Islam in Pakistan the group of people where they all the other also wanted the shariah imposed in their region but our President is not allowing it because they thing that we should be modernized. So why not allow them to impose shariah i their region where all the people living are wanting it. Other part of country knows that they want shriah but the way they are going for it is not right. But they want shariah i say why not impose it in a country may i tell you Islam never say no to technology improvement but the thins Islam have on the way we use it likewise what we do with internet some will use it for something wrong but some will use it for religion. So islam is till the day of judgment so why are we ashamed of applying it in our lives. You all also have heard of Lal Masjid isssue in Islamabad you know i may be speaking something that some would think im developing sects but shia armed forces did the operation in the Lal Masjid. You know many small sisters and elder sisters were present around about 700 to 800 but our president did not wanted them to live. May i tell a agreement was made between the Lal masjid people and minister for religion and other ministers and this was sent to Musharraf for approval but he rejected and after that after 2 to 3 hours they started operation the lal masjid people were saying that forgive them all and they will insure that they will not indulge in this kind of activity anymore but President did not liked it. They killed them all. all the our sister hafiz our sister alims our brother hafiz our brotheralims were killed on one man say, our small young hafiz sisters were buctured yo death and their was no one to see them . You many of them were those who lost thier family members in earth quake from which Pakistan suffered from. You know to hide the number of people martyred they blew up all the bodies of the young hafiz sisters and brothers, because every where around them media was present to save themselves did you see what they do. Now look Allahforbide you have only person in a family and he was killed like itold you above the what will happern. One of a person i know very well lives in the area where operation is being conducted now , he told me he said last night when got to his home a bomb of a tank was fired on the madersa and 50 or so children were killed, at the funereal he told me that he saw a father he said look i lived my whole life for my young and now im very old and i do not have any other relative what i do my whole life is flattened. Now put yourself in that place? I do not say that suicidal attack is right in Islam its only right in one when you blow yourself when in war fight with the army of non-Muslim and should have to see that of civilian Muslim or non-Muslim should not die in it. Before calling someone terrorist do see the reason behind it. And you should e proud to call yourself extremest Muslim why because Islam teaches everything right if i call ma extremest Muslim what is wrong Islam teaches us fraternity, brotherhood, kindness with all other, or to speak truth and etc etc, so if i call my self extremest kind , extreme truthful then what is wrong tell me?



    At last i posted so long post but the thing is sects are not the main reason but our going towards west doing what west do our leaders are not the true leader now we are going away from our religion some now muslims say music is not forbidden is Islam we want not to change ourself for Islam we want Islam to change for us and that is the real downfall of the Muslim. As i have seen you mostly live in Britain and other western country would always follow English news channels like bbc , cnn etc they do not depict the true picture but they depict what Bush want, they want Muslims to fight with each other,we should be united we should and should go back to our true religion. What America is doing that for the sake of the some individual needs they are killing Muslims, and one way they are killing them and earning money with that and other way round using same money to make Muslim away from the true religion by entering their culture through media and other things.

    We Muslims have to see what our are duties we are, and don't always lame ourself i see many Muslims saying that say that ooh we are the extremest we are like that we Muslims are like and that and so on. So i do not say that we should not rectify ourself but also do not insult ourself so much. See the reason and then speak.

    It was what our Holy Prophet (pbuh) said that a day will come we will mal-treated by non-muslims when we will go away from our religion. i would have talked much on this topic and about sects and other thing. Alhamdulilah i also have much knowledge about sects like comparative religion so i want to say do not indulge in these sects like things i hope this message will be seen correctly

    Jazak Allah Khair
     
  11. greymare

    greymare New Member

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    if I may Jazak Allah Khair, I am just an ignorant westerner, so I might ask a question and I hope not to offend you. OK? first of all, Pakistan has a good cricket team, however not as good as us Aussies. (laugh now). I feel a lot of pity for the suffering of your people. I have read all of your post. I still do not agree with suicide (of any kind, actually). I have looked for the reason and it is still not clear to me. Clearly, both sides need to spend time in each others lives to see how it is for them. I didnt understand that you called Comparative Religion a sect and that others do not indulge in these sects. Personally, to me knowledge is more powerful than any faith. I understand that you have great faith and I have none. thats ok. I get that with Christians as well. But I feel, the more I know about others the less inclined I am to judge them. What do you think about that.
    Salaam. (I hope that was correct)
     
  12. islamis4u

    islamis4u Vision To Spread Islam

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    Walikum Salam,

    Thank you for your compliment brother, my faith is not much im just a student and nothing else, secondly that, i said that im not justifying any suicidal attar its very wrong and against Islam but we should also see the causes and the one who suicidal attack must also should change their attitude and i do not said that comparative religion studies and sects in religion are one they both different. Lastly that i said we should indulge much in sects in religion it divides us and we should call ourself a Muslim, we should gather knowledge about the sects but do not indulge means we should not take part like saying that im from this sect and im from this sect.


    Jazak Allah Khair
     
  13. greymare

    greymare New Member

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    oh I apologise, I must have misinterpreted what you said. by the way, Im a woman, but that is ok and Shoaib Aktar ( I hope I spelt his name correctly ) is a legend at cricket.
     
  14. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    as salaam aleykum wa ramatullahi wa barakatuh

    I do agree that we should see their causes but I am sorry I cannot share your view that this is all a conspiracy by the US to kill Muslims. I have no love of the US government and am appalled by what they are doing in the Middle East but I do not believe they are the root of all the problems.

    I have over 300 Arabic tv channels and I want to cry when I see Mickey Mouse being used to teach children that they should 'kill the infidels'. I get angry when I see Imams calling their followers to commit a grave sin and kill themselves and others in the name of Allah. And I get confused when one scholar states absolutely that music is haraam and then another scholar, from the same madrassa, states absolutely that music is not haraam.

    I sit here on Friday and listen to the propaganda streaming from some of the mosques, the hatred that spews out about Jews and that I, if I am a good Muslim, must hate people en masse. I will not do this and I do not believe that Allah or the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) instructed me to hate any nation of people, just because they are named something different.

    This must stop and while Muslims are saying we should not blame ourselves it never will stop.

    Islam is not to blame for it, people are, Muslims with political agendas that use Islam. Yes the western governments have a lot to answer for but both sides must stop accusing each other and get their own house in order. The political and religious hatred and teaching of hatred must end, from both sides.

    Are we not taught by our Beloved Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) that we, as Muslims, must be the example to the world? What sort of example are we setting if we say 'it is all their fault' while teaching our children to kill and hate? Yes Muslims have a right to defend ourselves but some have gone from defence to attack and we know that is haraam.

    Salaam
     
  15. shamsery

    shamsery New Member

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    Peace , Mercy and Blessing of Allah(swt)be on you.

    Form Islamic view point killing innocent people narrated like this

    On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. 5:32
     
  16. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    and the Peace, Mercy and Blessing of Allah be on you.

    This is one of the greatest problems from where I sit. What is an innocent person? To me it is anyone that has not attacked me or the Muslim people because of their faith. Some Imams say it is anyone that is not Muslim, because if you are not Muslim you cannot be innocent but with this attitude the killing and hatred will never stop.
     
  17. Lecter

    Lecter Fundamentalist

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    Ah but the Qur'an also says:

    Allah forbiddeth you not those who warred not against you on account of religion and drove you not out from your homes, that ye should show them kindness and deal justly with them. Lo! Allah loveth the just dealers. [60:8]



    :)
     
  18. shamsery

    shamsery New Member

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    Salam,
    1.Good Question
    2. Controversial
    3. You are correct.
     
  19. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    Unfortunately Lecter what Allah tells us in the Quran and what people choose to interpret are sometimes very different things.
     
  20. islamis4u

    islamis4u Vision To Spread Islam

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    I again saying i was talking about Pakistan in Pakistan, There is no sucidal attacks because of sects in Islam, okay i told you about the points that why are they created i said that look not everything is not because of American policies, you said about the Imams of egypt but im saying about Pakistan, i live in their i know people i know the people of Pakistan, and the thing what is happening their its not my views its the view of Pakistani, our intelligence agency is the most powerful intelligence may be now some politician of Pakistan have degraded it but still it is, i may be not with view of these people that we should blow ourself it is rightly said is wrong but the thing is that i have talked to them in knew their feelings and what is America doin in Pakistan,

    Apart from this i do not see you read whole article but i said that something we should also see in ourself what we are doing we are also going away from our religion and that is also causing much and much problems.
     

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