Monogamy

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Monogamy coming from the Greek words Mono = one Gamy = marriage.

Why are scientists trying to claim that monogamy is unnatural in humans? I find it funny how they can make such a false statement. Bought a science magazine that covered sex yesterday front page reads, Why Monogamy is Unnatural.

Some primates are monogamous not many but there is. Where as most primates are not monogamous especially are closest relatives. But Just because of that scientists try to impose that monogamy is unnatural in humans. What I don't understand is why has man strived for monogamy for thousands of years if it is so unnatural? From political organisations to religious organisations? If it had been so unnatural obviously mankind would not have moved in this direction regardless for whatever reason. It's clearly the most convenient, prosperous and healthiest way to live and we are in constant battle with this idea and our dark nature. The chauvinistic male will always strive for monogamy and submission. These days physical control over a female is limited and thank God for that but I think the male will always find ways of manipulating women especially economically and mentally.


 
The chauvinistic male will always strive for monogamy and submission.

Hi Postmaster

I am a huge supporter of Monogamy, so I share your dismay at the attempts to prove, through animal behaviour that monogamy is unnatural.

However, I cannot agree with the above statment. Men don't come more chauvinistic these days than in the Arabian countries, where polygamy is widely accepted. I watched a news piece on Egyptian tv, they interviewed a man with 4 wives. When asked why he had taken a second wife he said it was because the first was so jealous. Now if that isn't about controlling and making your first wife submissive then I really do not know what is.
 
monogamy doesn't exist in the animal kingdom becuase the animals can't sign wedding papers... life partnerships/ life-mates do exist, within some species, and it is considered that this is a practise has arisen perhaps because of the scarcity of mates... much better it is to have regular bird nookie with a bird u know can give u chicks than run around showing off and impregnating all wily nily and wasting ur seed...

human marriage is a con- the roots of human marriage are like slave contracts- the women of the family were bought and sold like cattle, and traditionally women had the same status within the household as cattle, and could be bought or sold just like that... they were goods, chattel, objects of the household owned by the menfolk... they did not vote, they did not perform on stage, they were not able to be politicians, and after marriage they did not work... women were second class citizens and considered less able and more feeble intellectually than men, and human marriage ceremonies are the last vestiges of this oppression of women...

this is why women wear veils, when they wed- so the man doesn't see what he's paid for/or bought til he's up the aisle...

it's why we have the tradition of the Dad "giving away" his daughter today- in the old days he would have recieved a a fee for this daughter if he was rich, or he would have paid a dowry, and paid for some man to take her off his hands if he was poor...

why does the woman take the man's name? because by taking his name she loses her own... and it's not just the name she loses, is it, but something of herself... the children by default bear his name too, and so become of him, rather than of her...

all of which in total suggests that that union of man and woman is not a holy one at all; but a man made one- and the point of which is to get rid of women, should u be burdened with them as daughters, who are not as highly prized as males, or collecting a few maids, should u not have enough daughters urself...

no point cultivating intelligence, ladies, as as soon as ur married any idea u might have of a life has gone! u will have to be subservient to the man in ur partnership- and let's not forget in the traditional ceremony a woman would always promise IN FRONT OF GOD that she would obey her husband...
wowzer... sounds really holy, that, doesn't it?

lose ur name, and ur identity, give up any hope of having a career, sit at home making ur own sanitary napkins and dropping out babies and u must remember to do as ur told... hot diggety- yes, that's just the kind of life I'm after for myself and my girls... !

so, u see, monogamy is not a stand alone subject... it would be lovely if ppl married because they fell in love and were together for ever, but life isn't like that...

monogamy has been hailed as great stuff, but not because it's good- it's just that the alternative- being divorced and remarrying, traditionally, is difficult...

everyone wants a virgin- married before? well, ur secondhand goods, then...

u might have children from another partnership, and so the woman is tied to another man forever, regardless of her new partner and his wishes, and if she has no status herself, and is just chattel, then she can't have two masters, can she?...

in catholicism, a divorce was not allowed... ur marriage meant u were tied to that person forever, and if u wanted a divorce u simply could not have one without also being unable to accept the sacraments... if u were high profile and wanted a divorce, u were ex-communicated...u couldn't marry a divorcee, either, as when everyone got to heaven things would become complicated...

so, women put up with bad marriages, abuse, infidelity, becuase she didn't have much option but to... and hurrah! we don't have to do it anymore!

last century-being an old maid, an unmarried woman, over the age of 30, well... u might as well join a convent... divorced? u were a harlot, couldn't receive communion... children out of wedlock? u would be taken away to an institution and locked away...

and so, this great ideal of monogamy is really no more than a con... married forever? why should u, if he beats u, or runs around with other women? and the same applies to men, although, historically, men were always able to "put the women away", ie, lock them up, or send them away to nunneries, etc, if they were adulterous, but when ur a slave the same rules don't apply, do they? u can't send ur captors away... u can't lock up ur masters, unless u revolt...

hurrah- and we did!
 
I agree. Men will always find ways to get women to be submissive. In the west men get higher pay then females on average. Degrading there behavior is also one.. In the west many men go by the phrase Bros before Hoes. This is a more passive form of chauvinism.
 
I think it goes deeper than that Postmaster and what I hate is that women have bought into it. The media objectifies women and then calls it a 'womans right and choice '. Women are running around delighting in this freedom to use their bodies as they please, without seeing that they are being used in the most submissive way.

I think we can safely assume that if 20 men walked up to any woman in the street and said here is £200, undress to your underwear so we can look at you that all women would tell them where to go. Yet when media men ask women to do it to sell a power tool, knowing men will be drawn in by looking at the woman, the women can't wait to excercise their 'right' to do so.
 
and human marriage ceremonies are the last vestiges of this oppression of women...

And yet a vast majority of women in the world, given the choice, wouldn't be without it.

why does the woman take the man's name? because by taking his name she loses her own...

I think that is too generalised Francis. The Middle East is probably the worst offender in oppressing women, yet their women retain the fathers name, as this denotes their lineage.

no point cultivating intelligence, ladies, as as soon as ur married any idea u might have of a life has gone!

OMG and here I was thinking that I have a happy life, enjoy my marriage, run my own business and retain a large degree of self. ;)

lose ur name, and ur identity, give up any hope of having a career, sit at home making ur own sanitary napkins and dropping out babies and u must remember to do as ur told... hot diggety- yes, that's just the kind of life I'm after for myself and my girls... !

That is the point Francis, it is a choice. Your life experiences ma have brought you to this way of thinking. However, I had to go through a legal battle to take my husbands name, because I wanted to. I choose to run my own business and the chance of me ever doing as I am told is virtually zero - I am a rebel to the core. So it is different courses for different horses, you can't lump us all in one group and shouldn't assume that anothers choice is through brainwashing, oppression or lack of intelligence.

so, u see, monogamy is not a stand alone subject... it would be lovely if ppl married because they fell in love and were together for ever, but life isn't like that...

For many it is, my parents have been married almost 50 years and it is a little yukky watching two wrinklies snogging and goosing each other.

monogamy has been hailed as great stuff, but not because it's good- it's just that the alternative- being divorced and remarrying, traditionally, is difficult...[/quoted]

Family unit appears to what is missing from this statement. It is not just about the marriage and sex life of two adults, it is also about the creation of children and the family unit as a whole. That is what has been protected for so long. Why do you think the government have for the last 20 years been dicussing whether to make it harder to get divorced in the UK. Because they are acknowledging the importance of a family unit, not because they want people to stay married.

everyone wants a virgin- married before? well, ur secondhand goods, then...

I must remember to ask my husband why he married me, as he had so many young virgins to choose from. ;)

u might have children from another partnership, and so the woman is tied to another man forever, regardless of her new partner and his wishes, and if she has no status herself, and is just chattel, then she can't have two masters, can she?...

Surely that is the whole point. Even without a marriage certificate, the woman is tied for life to the father of her child. Or would you prefer that we live in a society where people have random sex and the identity of the father is never known? Although facial features are often a giveaway, particularly in small communities.

so, women put up with bad marriages, abuse, infidelity, becuase she didn't have much option but to... and hurrah! we don't have to do it anymore!

Yet there are men out there that are beaten and abused by their wives everday and society makes them ashamed to seek help. If you don't believe in monogamy, can be there be such a thing as infidelity?

last century-being an old maid, an unmarried woman, over the age of 30, well... u might as well join a convent... divorced? u were a harlot, couldn't receive communion... children out of wedlock? u would be taken away to an institution and locked away...

That is very true, women have been badly used throughout history and religious institutions have a lot to answer for there.

hurrah- and we did!

What did we do? Did we attain our freedom or just buy into a different con?
 
What did we do? Did we attain our freedom or just buy into a different con?

Bought into a different con of course. You can't change the nature of men and women no matter how far female chauvinism goes.

Personally I think all men and women want monogamy, it's just that we also chase the best mate we can and this is what results in instable relationships which leads many people to the conclusion that monogamy is a romance. Eventually it catches up with people when they start to turn 30 and realise they must spend the rest of there life with someone in a devoted caring relationship. Something interesting I read was that scientific research concludes that women are more likely to cheat on partners who have the same gene types as them, something to do with pheromones but they seem to be more visually attracted to those who have the same gene types. Try get round that one! On the balance men born with natures gifts will be more demanding and probably won't resist playing around.
 
I'll be okay then, I wear Wranglers and my hubby wears D&G. :D

There may actually be some truth to that Postmaster. I am attracted to very tall, slightly chubby, blonde guys. Yet both of my husbands are the same height as me, both have the same size feet as me, both have dark hair and both athletic build - go figure!! Yet I have never been tempted to order from the menu, although I do sometimes read it. ;)
 
Francis king said:
monogamy doesn't exist in the animal kingdom becuase the animals can't sign wedding papers...
nevertheless, there are some animals that mate for life - but the point about being human is that we're not animals and we can make moral choices, because we have free will and are not merely subject to our instincts - we can choose to resist them if we decide to so do.

human marriage is a con- the roots of human marriage are like slave contracts
not jewish marriage. in fact, if you look at how slavery works in the Torah, all slaves must be freed at the end of seven years and, even while slaves, are entitled to various forms of compensation and can even be entitled to early emancipation for, say, the loss of a tooth, so we can't say that all slaveries are equal.

the women of the family were bought and sold like cattle and traditionally women had the same status within the household as cattle, and could be bought or sold just like that... they were goods, chattel, objects of the household owned by the menfolk... they did not vote, they did not perform on stage, they were not able to be politicians, and after marriage they did not work... women were second class citizens and considered less able and more feeble intellectually than men, and human marriage ceremonies are the last vestiges of this oppression of women...
not in judaism. the woman must always consent (read the story of isaac and rebecca) and, lest we forget, could not only engage in commerce and investment in her own right, but could also inherit (see the daughters of zelophechad) to say nothing of her right to a divorce. to be honest, i think your idea of this is derived from the way the greeks and particularly the byzantines used to treat their women, rather than the jews and muslims, or even, dare i say it, the romans. these are very generalised and rather splenetic objections in any case.

this is why women wear veils, when they wed- so the man doesn't see what he's paid for/or bought til he's up the aisle...
ahem. the jewish wedding ceremony involves a ritual known colloquially as the "bedeken", where the groom first sees the bride - without her veil - and then lowers it into place. this happens before the signing of the contracts or the ceremony. of course, in non-jewish weddings, this doesn't occur, so obviously such a perception might indeed arrive.

it's why we have the tradition of the Dad "giving away" his daughter today- in the old days he would have recieved a fee for this daughter if he was rich, or he would have paid a dowry, and paid for some man to take her off his hands if he was poor...
in judaism the marriage contract is all about what the man has to agree to provide for his wife as a condition of getting to marry her: food, shelter, clothing and sexual satisfaction. it is not about "buying" anything. obviously a father could enter into this contract on behalf of a minor bride but an adult woman (over 12 years old) would be expected to contract on her own behalf.

why does the woman take the man's name? because by taking his name she loses her own... and it's not just the name she loses, is it, but something of herself... the children by default bear his name too, and so become of him, rather than of her...
judaism is matrilineal. that means it's the mother's lineage that matters as to whether someone is jewish or not. the father's lineage merely determines the tribal affiliation.

let's not forget in the traditional ceremony a woman would always promise IN FRONT OF GOD that she would obey her husband...
again, you're talking about a christian ceremony, not a jewish one.

the alternative- being divorced and remarrying, traditionally, is difficult...
not if you are entitled to a financial settlement. in fact, if you have a decent financial settlement, you are not obliged to remarry. women, unlike men, are not obliged to marry.

and so, this great ideal of monogamy is really no more than a con... married forever? why should u, if he beats u, or runs around with other women? and the same applies to men, although, historically, men were always able to "put the women away", ie, lock them up, or send them away to nunneries, etc, if they were adulterous, but when ur a slave the same rules don't apply, do they? u can't send ur captors away... u can't lock up ur masters, unless u revolt...
i agree that without divorce and women's rights, you would be correct - but you may be surprised to know that in a jewish marriage contract, the man signs up to fulfilling "duties", not gaining "rights" - and the small print says that if he has bad breath, or a disagreeable job, or an unpleasant manner, or doesn't come up to scratch in the nooky department, he can be divorced. he can't, however, divorce *her* for any of these reasons!

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
I believe in monogamy. I must point out although that as a mother of three boys, I have never been married. To be perfectly honest, I have never been asked, not seriously anyway. But that is not the only reason. My 2 oldest boys father was a violent alcoholic and I regret staying there as long as I did. But I would never marry him. I do believe in the "til death us do part". Thats why. I was always trying to escape from him so I wasnt going to promise to be there. Or if I did the "death" part would have come around a lot quicker than I wanted.

I suppose its a fantasy in this day and age to believe in a marriage for life. I'm still waiting. But I'm not being idle in the meantime. My oldest gets married in December and I know he'll make a good husband. His fiance is a sweetheart and I love her dearly. I hope they have the relationship that lasts a loooooong lifetime. these are just my thoughts. love the Grey
 
I have been married twice, the first time around I became a widow at the tender age of 19 while large with child. It was a very dark time in my life and I fought depression for quite awhile while raising a daughter then perhaps out of loneliness I remarried and had another daughter. That marriage was a disaster and ended up badly. I then raised two daughter for about 10 years alone and bitter. I hated men and everything they stood for until I met another man quite by accident back in 1990 and we have been together since without a marriage contract. My daughters have become his daughter in the way in which he treats them and my grandchildren have become his the same way.
Last week we found out he is in the early stages of Alzheimer's and he is only 58 years old and he also has prostrate cancer in the later stages. I doubt if he will hit 59 years and that thought makes me sad that he may not be able to see his beloved grandkids grow up to adulthood. There is no genetic links between this man and my children or grandchildren, but they are his family in every sense of the word. Yesterday as he held our 5 week old granddaughter I watched him weep after they left when he realized he was not going to see this tiny being grow up, I cry at night thinking of what is to come, I cry when his 94 year old mother frets about losing her only son. The one thing that helps is knowing that this man has loved my weird little family more then himself and given his all to make us feel happy and safe.
He recently bought and paid for his funeral and plan it and he does not want us to be sad but to celebrate what we have had. He did that before he loses his memory or reasoning ability and he is talking with hospice when the time comes, He has a signed and certified DNR given to his doctor and in his will so we won't have to make that decision which is a great gift in itself. I try not to dwell on it all but it is on my mind constantly, at work, while taking a bath, eating dinner.
Sometimes monogamy works, sometimes it does not. Sometimes I wish he was a lying cheating son of a bitch and this mess would be much easier to take, but is sure is harder when it is somebody you love.

Anita
 
I'm so very sorry to hear of your partner's ill health Anita. Life can be so very hard sometimes. I'll be thinking of you, please let us know how things are going. Even though these are just words on a screen we're all real people on the other side of this shared connection. It has helped me a lot to be able to reach out to my friends here during my own recent loss.

Chris
 
Monogamy may be a "natural" part of what goes to make human civilization work most efficiently under certain circumstances, but speaking as a male of the species I think we still do have a "fertilize the herd" instinct when we're in our prime.

Chris
 
Namaste Anita, in our prayers...

Monogamy....once committed I'm a monogamous kinda guy.

In 20+ years of marriage I was often tempted, right there in your face kinda stuff...but it really didn't interest me to break a trust in that way.

I was lookin forward to growin old together...however my spouse decide that till death vow wasn't really binding I suppose...she said she moved on because I was unreliable and she was afraid I'd be an eccentric old geezer...I say she got out just in the nick of time. She had me replaced prior to taking off though...good sense on her part.

Her family had lots of divorce in it, parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles etc. Mine had none....divorce wasn't in my vocabulary....it is now...and unfortunately it is in my children's as well.

Geese I understand mate for life....in humans it seems to me we grow and change...and some of us just don't have the wherewithal to see the commitment through along with the changes. In my limited analysis most of those that work through the turmoil and the tough times end up quite content in those aging years...and often those that split up decades later see the folly in their decisions.
 
Anita its great how your partner embraced your children as his own, I'm so sorry about the situation.
 
Anita ....... lost for words. Thoughts and prayers for you and yours.
 
It has helped me a lot to be able to reach out to my friends here during my own recent loss.

Hi Chris

This morning I read a post by Mark on one of my threads, he had a serious insight into life. I feel so honoured I got to 'meet' him before he left. He was a point of light in a dark world.

Salaam
Sally
 
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