There is no such thing as 'Free Will'

[path_of_one]

Now I know that there are scriptures that attest to God causing evil to come upon people, but that's usually in the form of judgement. The evil I'm addressing in my question is of the moral variety.

I can't say what the Jewish perspective would be, naturally, but I think a Christian answer is that "God is Love." So, no. God does not have free will to not be Love. God is, by definition, Love and all it entails.

Now of course, where it gets sticky is when you think about how God created everything, and some of these things are evil. So how is that possible? I think this is why it is easier for me to see "evil" and "sin" as distancing or separating from God, and a result of the free will of sentient beings. Whereas "goodness" and "love" is cleaving to and uniting with God, also a result of free will, but helped along considerably by God's grace. All sentient beings have God's light in them, and so have the capacity for goodness and love, but we must choose it over self-centered desire and fear, or else we fall perpetually into sin.

 

[path_of_one]

incidentally, from G!D's PoV, time surely has no meaning, past, present and future are all One, hence there's no free will because no choice is necessary. however G!D has Created the conditions for such within our universe. so in that sense, what is "predetermined" for G!D (because all time is One to G!D) is subject to choice for us.

BB, I found this really interesting. I have rarely tried to summarize it, but this is precisely how I see the predetermination/foreknowledge vs. free will issue. It is not an actual issue at all. The issue is our limitations in understanding time, which seems linear to us, but certainly is not linear for God.

 

[Quahom1]

If BB is correct, then time and Free will, are relative concepts, dependent upon where they are applied.

But that would conflict with BB's own scriptures (nevermind the NT).

 

[path_of_one]

Q, if I may say so, I think BB is more saying that we can't fathom how God experiences time. So free will exists, and God knows everything, and it is not contradictory as Azure proclaims.

At least, I didn't get out of what he was saying that either were relative, but more that human understanding of both is flawed. Of course, our understanding of everything is flawed, so it makes sense to me!

 

[bible_reader]

Do you not think that the Son of God could interpret this man's character?

 

[Quahom1]

Q, if I may say so, I think BB is more saying that we can't fathom how God experiences time. So free will exists, and God knows everything, and it is not contradictory as Azure proclaims.

At least, I didn't get out of what he was saying that either were relative, but more that human understanding of both is flawed. Of course, our understanding of everything is flawed, so it makes sense to me!

But I think we are given good information on just how God does experience time.
1. He is the God of yesterday, today and tomorrow.
2. He always was and always will be.
3. No beginning and no end.
4. 1000 of our years are as a day to Him and a 1000 of His years are as a day to us.
5. He knew us before we were stitched together in the womb.
6. "Before Abraham was born, I Am".
7. His name is "I Am" (which is eternally present).

The common thread in this is the eternal "present", regardless of where "we" are on our linear timeline. It reminds me of an infinity mirror...whether our eyes shift and focus behind us or in front of us, God is still there, and moving in the moments exactly the same as the next or the previous, regardless of which reflection we are focusing on.

By all rights that put's God "outside" of time (our time), and yet able to work within "our time" or moment.

My mother taught me that though we can not go back in time and repair damage to a relationship, we can petition God, who can and will gladly go back and repair the damage for us.

She uses Jacob and his brother as an example. For years Jacob hid from his brother fearing he'd kill him for the wrong he comitted, yet when they finally met, it was as though nothing had ever happened, which left Jacob confused, but relieved. Only God could have repaired the damage to that relationship, and it was a great deal of damage. But He had to have done it in the past, and out of sight of Jacob.

v/r

Q

 

[path_of_one]

Yes, I agree- but I think that's what BB was trying to say. I know that's what I was trying to say. God exists outside time. This is something we can intellectually think about but never really grasp (at least not while embodied here on earth) because we can't help but have a feeling like time is linear, when in fact it is not.

The analogy I had heard that I thought best described it was in a little book called "Einstein's Dreams." It went something like... Time was not continuous, but rather infinite numbers of little boxes with things happening, like a huge post office with infinite numbers of little mailboxes, each a moment. To those in those boxes, they perceive the present and then see a continuity between past and future. But to the One outside the boxes, looking at all of them at once, all is perceived at once and all time is one time. All time is now, and always now.

That's what I meant when we can't fathom how God experiences time. We might be able to gain (from the Bible, physics, whatever) a glimpse, but we can't really know what it is like to be eternal and experience time that way.

Ultimately, what I was trying to say is that Azure's argument is based on false pretext: that God exists in the same kind of experience of time we do, so predetermination and free will are opposing possibilities. In fact, I argue that because time does not exist to God in the same way at all, the two go hand in hand and are seamless.

 

[Gatekeeper]

What does this verse mean, in light of free will issue?

Ephesians: 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God

Love,

James

 

[Quahom1]

Yes, I agree- but I think that's what BB was trying to say. I know that's what I was trying to say. God exists outside time. This is something we can intellectually think about but never really grasp (at least not while embodied here on earth) because we can't help but have a feeling like time is linear, when in fact it is not.

The analogy I had heard that I thought best described it was in a little book called "Einstein's Dreams." It went something like... Time was not continuous, but rather infinite numbers of little boxes with things happening, like a huge post office with infinite numbers of little mailboxes, each a moment. To those in those boxes, they perceive the present and then see a continuity between past and future. But to the One outside the boxes, looking at all of them at once, all is perceived at once and all time is one time. All time is now, and always now.

That's what I meant when we can't fathom how God experiences time. We might be able to gain (from the Bible, physics, whatever) a glimpse, but we can't really know what it is like to be eternal and experience time that way.

Ultimately, what I was trying to say is that Azure's argument is based on false pretext: that God exists in the same kind of experience of time we do, so predetermination and free will are opposing possibilities. In fact, I argue that because time does not exist to God in the same way at all, the two go hand in hand and are seamless.

I disagree and agree. Azure's concept doesn't hold water, but we can fathom God's time (there is nothing man can not achieve, that he puts his mind to) Deuterotomy.

We do fathom God's time, when we step back and watch the world go by, while we are not in it. We can do this in our minds, and only for a short while.

 

[path_of_one]

But how can we know that is how God really experiences time? It certainly is a different way that we experience time. It is not our ordinary experience. But how do we know it is the same as God's?

 

[Quahom1]

But how can we know that is how God really experiences time? It certainly is a different way that we experience time. It is not our ordinary experience. But how do we know it is the same as God's?

I guess that is where faith and acceptance in what God has allegedley told us comes into play...

 

[path_of_one]

I guess that for me there is a difference in the faith of the aforementioned qualities, and believing I understand what that feels like. I can read all I want about say, God having no beginning and no end, and I sincerely have faith in that. But then say I have an experience where I feel like I have no beginning and no end. That's great and all, but I wouldn't say I then can feel how it feels to be God (or how God experiences time), or that I really understand experientially what it is like to have no beginning and no end.

I had an experience, but I can't know it is the same experience as the Truth.

I guess that's why I just stick with experiencing stuff, and not trying to really grasp the details. It's like grasping at wind. I can feel wind, but I can't really hold on to it.

 

[Azure24]

I'm not so sure, perhaps i have a different interpretation of free will as you all do. This explanation might be quite long but bear with me. Ok, again from the top...

What is more "lawless" than the teaching of "free will?" It contradicts all the laws of physics in the universe. Nothing happens without a cause. The cause of all is God. But the wisdom of men says that man can make uncaused choices. Therefore man can choose to save himself or he can choose to send himself to eternity in hell. The decision is his and not God’s.

Human free will sovereignty is the ultimate example of lawlessness. Plus, it contradicts God and His Word in hundreds of places. We don’t choose Christ; Christ chooses us. We can’t come to God unless and until He draws [drags] us to Christ. We have no faith of our own—it is a gift of God. No man seeks after God. No man is good. Without Christ we can do nothing. It is God Who even causes us to will in the first place.

I heard a world-famous televangelist say in his sermon that it was never God’s intention that Adam and Eve disobied His command and sin by eating of the forbidden tree. Most Christians would agree. They think God did not want Adam to sin; and Adam did not need to sin. If Adam had not sinned, we would all be living in a giant Garden of Eden to this very day. We would be in perfect health, there would be no sorrow, we would have pleasure twenty-four hours a day, we would never die, we would be happy and God too would be happy.

If Adam had shown just a little restraint the world wouldn’t be in the giant mess it is in today. Oh really? Well, why then didn’t Adam exercise restraint. What went wrong? Did the first humans malfunction? Was there a flaw in their original design. God was the Designer; is God the blame? Not according to Christendom. Is He at least responsible? Not according to Christendom. But why not?

Now listen carefully. When a scientist creates an experiment or machine that malfunctions, is he responsible for the malfunction? Yes. Does he hold the experiment or machine responsible? No. Does he hold God responsible? No. Okay.

Now then, according to Christendom, when God creates an experiment or machine that malfunctions, is He responsible for the malfunction? No. Does He hold the experiment or machine responsible? Yes. Does He hold man responsible? Yes. See the wisdom?

I have just shown you one reason why God calls the WISDOM of this world, STUPIDITY!

"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness [Greek: stupidity] with God. For it is written, He takes the wise in their own craftiness" (I Cor. 3:19).

First, do you assume that God’s creation of humans malfunctioned -- they did NOT!

Second, do you assume that God is not responsible and does not take responsibility -- He DOES!

Few indeed have ever stopped long enough to consider that just maybe God intended for the world to be in the hellish mess that we find it. Not for all eternity, but for the present, for a period of time, for a great purpose.

It just seems so wrong to that some would thing to believe that God would have purposed such an evil and unhappy world. But look at the alternative. Are we to believe that God tried (albeit unsuccessfully) to make a good creation, but was unaware of its potential to run amok? And ever since, God must therefore either lack the love for humanity to straighten it out, or He lacks the power and ability. But either way it disowns God’s sovereignty and presents us with a God Who either CANNOT or WILL NOT STOP THE INSANITY! They would have us believe that God’s solution to rid the world of sin and evil is to torture most of humanity in fire for all eternity.

The whole idea is blasphemous. If a carnal-minded human can take responsibility for an invention that malfunctions, I submit, that God is bigger and more responsible than puny man. Be it known to all that God takes full responsibility for His creation, and absolutely nothing in His creation is malfunctioning. Here’s the proof:

"For the creature [and/or creation itself] wasMADE subject to VANITY NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him [that’s God] Who HATH SUBJECTED the same in hope. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the WHOLE CREATION groans and travails IN PAINuntil NOW" (Rom. 8:20-22)

It was God HIMSELF Who subjected the whole creation to vanity, and He didn’t ask anyone’s permission before He did it. And it is only God Himself Who will deliver the whole creation from the bondage of corruption, pain, and suffering. Make no mistake about it: God is the Creator of evil, and He takes full responsibility for the deliverance from the consequences of all the evils that have caused the creation to "groan and travail in PAIN until NOW" as Paul describes. God takes responsibility for the temporary failures of creation so that He can take all the credit and glory for its successes.

It was not possible for Satan NOT TO SIN -- he was created for the express purpose of being God’s Adversary, and so, of course, he was a sinner "FROM THE BEGINNING"!

It was not possible for Adam and Eve NOT TO SIN -- they were created for the express purpose of being molded into the "image of God," and so of course, they had to eat of the forbidden tree of the knowledge of good and evil or they would have NEVER reached this first spiritual step in becoming LIKE GOD (in His IMAGE), a step of paramount DIVINE REQUISITE

"And the LORD God said, Behold [consider, to perceive, to know, to understand], the man is BECOME AS ONE OF US [Hebrew for ‘God’ is elohiym which is the plural of elowahh, hence ‘us’], TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL..." (Gen. 3:22).

Knowing "good and evil" is one of the most essential requisites in being formed in the image of God. To truly "know" both good and evil they HAD to partake of its source, which was the "TREE of the knowledge of good and evil," which then DEMANDED that they SIN in order to obtain this "knowledge." NO OTHER TREE IN THE GARDEN POSSESSED THIS NEEDED KNOWLEDGE!

And so it was GOD, and none other than GOD, Who intended from the beginning that Satan and man SIN! That does not make God a sinner, for a sin is a "mistake," a "missing of the mark," a "falling short of the glory of God," and God has NEVER MADE A MISTAKE OR FALLEN SHORT OF TOTAL PERFECTION! God knew what He was doing and how things would turn out BEFORE He created ANYTHING! "Declaring the end from the beginning..." (Isa. 46:10). Satan and man are "accountable" for their sins, because they sinned willingly from their heart, but God takes "responsibility" for their sins, and therefore had already provided them a Saviour BEFORE the foundation of the world.

 

[Azure24]

Is anyone so naive and blind as to believe that God had prepared a Lamb, a Sacrifice, His SON, to be slain for the sins of the world at a time when theologians would have us believe God didn’t even KNOW there was shortly coming such a thing as SIN? God knew; God is smart! It was God Who created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil It was God Who placed it right in the middle of the garden to catch Eve’s eye. It was God Who made the tree particularly attractive and desirable. It was God who placed in the humans the desires and passions that would CAUSE them to partake of the forbidden fruit. It was God who placed Satan the serpent in the garden to tempt Eve and fill her head with the glories of enlightenment. It was God Who had ALREADY made preparation for their salvation through the slain Lamb of God.

Only ignorant and foolish theologians would ever charge God of being ignorant of the conduct and behavior of His own creation. It was not the temptation or deception entering INTO Eve that caused her to sin and bring separation from her Creator and God. It was what was already in her that caused her to sin.

"For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies" (Mat. 15:19).

Was it not God that made our hearts?

"And when the woman saw [in her heart] that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eye [in her heart], and a tree to be desired [in her heart] to make one wise [an idol of the heart], she took [’For out of the heart proceed ... thefts...’] of the fruit thereof, and did eat" (Gen. 3:6).

Did you notice that last phrase "...and did eat"? It was not the "eating" of the fruit that made her a sinner -- she had ALREADY sinned by looking, lusting, and fantasizing about her potential wisdom. It was AFTER she sinned that she "did eat."

The good news is that all of our suffering is for a grand purpose and will ultimately bring huge rewards.Just two verses before, Paul tells us how God subjected the whole creation to these many evils and he gives us this comforting thought:

"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [’groaning and travailing in pain together until now’ Ver 22] are not worthy to be compared with the GLORY which shall be revealed in US" (Ver. 18).

Please understand God is responsible for everything. Think "the big picture..."

 

[seattlegal]

I'm not so sure, perhaps i have a different interpretation of free will as you all do. This explanation might be quite long but bear with me. Ok, again from the top...

What is more "lawless" than the teaching of "free will?" It contradicts all the laws of physics in the universe. Nothing happens without a cause. The cause of all is God. But the wisdom of men says that man can make uncaused choices. Therefore man can choose to save himself or he can choose to send himself to eternity in hell. The decision is his and not God’s.

Human free will sovereignty is the ultimate example of lawlessness. Plus, it contradicts God and His Word in hundreds of places. We don’t choose Christ; Christ chooses us. We can’t come to God unless and until He draws [drags] us to Christ. We have no faith of our own—it is a gift of God. No man seeks after God. No man is good. Without Christ we can do nothing. It is God Who even causes us to will in the first place.

Is love real if it is not freely given?
See Galatians 5
I recommend the whole chapter, but I will highlight one passage:

13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!​

It would seem that free will is a spiritual thing, rather than a fleshly thing.

 

[Azure24]

[/size][/font][/font][/font]
Is love real if it is not freely given?

Not given freely? I did not say love was forced onto us.

Some erroneously believe that if God were Sovereign and man had no free will, then God would force us to live righteously and godly; He would force us to love Him; He would force us against our will to do His will; and such utter nonsense. God forces no one to do His will. Which of the apostles was forced to do the will of God against his will? The unscriptural arguments against the Sovereignty are but smoke and mirrors of the theologians.
Here is a marvelous truth regarding Christ's judgment of His Elect: We accept judgment voluntarily. Jesus never forced or coerced anyone to follow Him. Jesus asked some disciples to follow Him, and they did:

"And He [Jesus] said unto them [Peter and Andrew], Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men. And they straightway left their nets, and follow Him" (Matt. 4:18-20).

One disciple Jesus called excused himself on the grounds that he had more important things to do:"And another of His disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. But Jesus said unto him, Follow me, and let the dead bury their dead" (Matt. 8:21-22).
Another disciple starts to follow Jesus, but then decides he has some personal things to attend to first. Jesus will reject such a person:"And another also said, Lord I will follow you, but let me first go bid them farewell, which at home at my house. And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back is fit for the kingdom of God" (Luke 9:61-62).
Jesus invites one young ruler to be a very Apostle, and he turns it down because the price is too high:Jesus said unto him, If you will be perfect, go and sell that you have, and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven,: and come and follow Me. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions" (Mat. 19:21-22).
Others volunteer to be followers of Jesus, but Jesus rejects them without any apparent explanation:"And a certain scribe came and said unto Him, Master, I will follow you whithersoever You go. And Jesus said unto him. The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man has no where to lay His head" (Matt. 8:19-20).
Jesus knew this upper class scribe would not be inclined to endure for very long.

Contradicting? No

He is GOD -- The Great Creator, Sustainer, and Saviour of all -- GOD! God has a plan, a procedure, and a purpose for this creation. Precious few have even a basic understanding of what it is. Nothing in creation is out of control from God’s perspective. Nothing ever surprises God or catches Him off guard. God does not view the activity of His creation from His celestial vantage point unaware of what people will do next. God knows all in advance. God doesn’t just know what "will" happen in the future, He causes all that will happen in the future. God IS the future. God is the Alpha and the Omega -- He IS the beginning; He IS the end, and nothing can be different from what God says MUST BE.

We have got to get away from the "God allows certain things" mentality and syndrome. God CREATES, God DESTROYS, God HEALS, God KILLS, God CAUSES, God BRINGS ABOUT. God SAVES. God does not "allow" things that He has not foreordained to be! The teaching suggests that man does things that God had no previous knowledge of, does not approve of, wishes would have never happened, but nonetheless, He "allows" them. Certainly He "allows" them in as much as He does not "disallow" them, but this still begs the question as to their true origin. God is the Creator, not Satan.

If you love, it is because God has CAUSED you to love, regardless of however long it takes. As I've said for the umphteenth time in the end EVERY knee shall bow, EVERY tounge confess...

 

[Dondi]

Not given freely? I did not say love was forced onto us.

Some erroneously believe that if God were Sovereign and man had no free will, then God would force us to live righteously and godly; He would force us to love Him; He would force us against our will to do His will; and such utter nonsense. God forces no one to do His will. Which of the apostles was forced to do the will of God against his will? The unscriptural arguments against the Sovereignty are but smoke and mirrors of the theologians.

If you love, it is because God has CAUSED you to love, regardless of however long it takes. As I've said for the umphteenth time in the end EVERY knee shall bow, EVERY tounge confess...

Well, now you have a seeming contradiction, all in the same post. Perhaps you could lay the distinction between these two quotes.

 

[17th Angel]

[/font][/font]



Well, now you have a seeming contradiction, all in the same post. Perhaps you could lay the distinction between these two quotes.

I personally think it is his own free will to choose to contradict himself... Let him be!

 

[Azure24]

Well, now you have a seeming contradiction, all in the same post. Perhaps you could lay the distinction between these two quotes.

Okay, okay i will (i'll just be going around circles though!).

I said some believe if God were sovereign and man had no free will then God would MAKE us do things.

We have no free will and God does not make us do things? How can this be you say?

I can give you a simple answer here, but no. I will make this long so you can fully understand...

GOD is the originator and Creator of the entire universe and everything that is in it! GOD is responsible for the entire universe and everything that is in it! And to say otherwise in both unscriptural and foolishness.

There are only three possibilities as to why things are the way they are;

Why there is evil and tragedy in the world;

Why people do evil things to other people;Why the innocent must suffer at the hands of the wicked;

Why people are born with debilitating defects;

Why the whole world lies in spiritual darkness and paganism;

Why billions live and die without ever hearing the name of Jesus Christ their Creator and Saviour;

Why men are often tortured by providence and nature itself which operates completely and independently apart from any man.

When we understand these things we will understand the lake of fire and second death, and a thousand other things that happen in our lives today as well as in the lives of all humanity since Mother Eve.

Here are the three possibilities:

1) ACCORDING TO ATHEISTS: The human race is the byproduct of a blind, unintelligent, accidental, evolutionary process started billions of years ago by a humongous cosmic BIG BANG. Therefore NO HIGHER POWER is responsible for anything. If anyone believes this, then the Scripture speaks to YOU when it says:

"The FOOL has said in his heart, ‘There IS NO God’" (Psalm 53:1).

2) ACCORDING TO CHRISTENDOM: The human race and angelic messengers are the perfect creation of an all-wise, all-powerful, all-knowing, undeceivable, untrickable, unfoolable, intelligent, and loving GOD. That’s the good news. Here’s the bad: God’s first and most perfect specimen created out of the combined intelligence, power and wisdom of a perfect God, was a great spirit archangel they call, Lucifer. (Incidentally and Scripturally, "Lucifer" was never a proper noun or name for anyone)!

The Christian teaching is that before God ever created the first man, this perfect archangel whom Christians call Lucifer, went bad! He was perfect but he turned bad! He turned into a bad angel (excuse me, archangel). Did God create him to turn bad? No. Did God know that he would turn bad? No. Did God wish that he hadn’t turned bad? Yes. But was there anything God could do about it? No. Why did God’s first and greatest creation to that time, malfunction? How can a PERFECT creation by a PERFECT Creator ... malfunction? "Houston ... WE HAVE A PROBLEM"! God doesn’t have a problem; Christendom has a problem.And it is the BIGGEST single problem in all Christendom! It is huge. It is this very Satanic LIE that has given birth to the most evil doctrines on the face of the earth in the history of the world!

According to this Christian theory [hypothesis], the very first thing that The Omnipresent, Omnipotent, Omniscient, Creator God made, not only malfunctioned, but turned into a DAMNABLE, DIABOLICAL DEVIL! This devil has ever since, relentlessly wreaked havoc on every facet of God’s creation which will consummate with a lake of fire that will continue to insanely torture most of the human race for all eternity! Salvation is pictured as God’s nearly vain attempt to salvage but a few from the grasp of this colossal cosmic experiment gone amok! God’s Spiritual Frankenstein Monster has turned on Him and His children. And it has already been predetermined that Satan will be the final Victor when all the marbles are counted. Not a pretty picture. This is the god that the world of paganism is supposed to put their eternal confidence in! A god who cannot or will not protect his own children from this cosmic wolf in sheep's clothing. (Small "g" intended). And you think I am too hard on the doctrines of Christendom? You have no idea.

Hence it is Satan that is supposedly responsible for introducing evil into the world. Satan supposedly chose to disobey God and therefore we also must choose, on our own, by our own power, as to whether we will follow and obey Satan; or follow and obey God. This is the Christian position on this matter of good and evil is it not?

3)ACCORDING TO GOD AND THE SCRIPTURES: Don’t get me wrong, Christendom did not originate this theological problem (Satan did); they merely continue to parrot the original author. Satan LIES! Yes he does. He is a LIAR, and the FATHER of lies and he has ALWAYS been that way since his CREATION (John 8:44). Satan was NOT "Lucifer" (a supposed perfect archangel) from the beginning; Satan was "Satan" from the beginning. Satan is an EVIL creature. He has been an evil creature from his very creation. Satan is not the result of a Godly experiment gone wrong! Satan is functioning PERFECTLY as God’s adversary. Satan is essential to the purpose and salvation of the whole human race. That is why God created him in the first place.

And so it is stated that men CHOOSE to go into the lake of fire and suffer eternal pain, and God’s hands are tied by a doctrine that Satan has planted into the hearts of all men everywhere. An idol of the heart of such magnitude that men will DIE to preserve it. Deceived humanity has perceived this idol to be of the greatest value of anything that can ever reside in the heart of man including the Holy Spirit of God!
And just what is it, specifically, that gave this fictitious archangel the ability to metamorphose himself into a devil? Which thing also then permits God to torture humanity eternally in fire, without it being His fault? Which thing also empowers man with the ability to thwart the VERY WILL OF GOD ALMIGHTY?

Here it is, the magical source of man’s imagined deity. It is, of course, "HUMAN FREE WILL." Or, as in the case with Satan, "SATANIC FREE WILL." And just what is human and satanic free will? It is a fictitious power that Satan and all humans imagine they have, which gives them the power to make choices that have NO CAUSE. Do not mistake what I have said. Choice is not the power to MAKE choices. We all have that power. Choice is a power of the brain, mind, and spirit. It is a logical functioning mechanism. Even a sophisticated computer can "make choices" based on other data at its disposal contained in its memories. But making choices is not ... I repeat is NOT, judging, determining or selecting something BASED ON NOTHING!!!

God follows His own spiritual laws. "Free will" sounds like a marvelous and magical thing -- it is rather, however, the god of stupidity. It is the height of man’s foolishness and human wisdom. It is both ungodly and unscriptural! It is an affront to the Sovereignty of God. Man and Satan are not deities that can operate independently of the Creator! The theory is a hoax, a farce, a sham. Its only reality is as an IDOL OF THE HEART which will be burned out of every son whom God scourges.
Of course all theologians are quick to point out that man does not possess total free will. Man's will is obviously limited we are told. Oh really? So it is "limited free will" that Satan and all humans possess is it? Does no one ever bother to question the contradictions of Christian doctrine?

"Iimited, a. restricted," Webster’s Twentieth Century Dictionary, page 963.

"free, a, without restriction," Webster’s Twentieth Century dictionary page, page 682.

"To will" requires a "work" of GOD! We all choose as we choose because there are things and forces and situations by the millions beyond anyone’s control that CAUSE US TO CHOOSE AS WE DO! It matters not that you cannot see or feel the cause. It is there and it does its work on you. And when causes make you choose, then that particular choice could not have ever been otherwise. God is the great CAUSE of all there is. I know Christians by the hundreds of millions deny it and deny God's Word that teaches it. That unbelief and lack of faith, however, does not change the facts of God’s Word or the laws of physics.

And so it is that neither man nor Satan can do anything contrary to the intention of God. God has a will that includes a final destiny of total perfection of His whole creation. God has set man and Satan (his very name means adversary) AGAINST HIS OWN WILL for a period of time. But during this period when everyone goes against God’s will, God INTENDS them to do so. And when God no longer "intends" for there to be any more adversaries or enemies opposing Him or His will, He will remove all such opposition (See I Cor. 15:21-28). ALL OF GOD’S WILL, WILL THEN BE DONE!

Gosh, even computers can make choices but it (inevitably) does what we make it do. It was made for that very purpose...

Like i said in a previous post...

We CAN make choices but we do not have FREE WILL, there is a big difference.

And for those that still do not believe...

Since I (to my very limited best) have tried to answer your questions, you should try and answer mine (in my previous posts).

 

[Dondi]

So if God is the ultimate cause of our choices, then we are not to blame. It was His intention that we disobey and rebel against him. But what is it He trying to prove?