There is no such thing as 'Free Will'

[seattlegal]

Is love real if it is not freely given?
See Galatians 5
I recommend the whole chapter, but I will highlight one passage:

13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!​

It would seem that free will is a spiritual thing, rather than a fleshly thing.

Okay, okay i will (i'll just be going around circles though!).

I said some believe if God were sovereign and man had no free will then God would MAKE us do things.

We have no free will and God does not make us do things? How can this be you say?

I can give you a simple answer here, but no. I will make this long so you can fully understand...

<...>

2) ACCORDING TO CHRISTENDOM: The human race and angelic messengers are the perfect creation of an all-wise, all-powerful, all-knowing, undeceivable, untrickable, unfoolable, intelligent, and loving GOD. That’s the good news. Here’s the bad: God’s first and most perfect specimen created out of the combined intelligence, power and wisdom of a perfect God, was a great spirit archangel they call, Lucifer. (Incidentally and Scripturally, "Lucifer" was never a proper noun or name for anyone)!

The Christian teaching is that before God ever created the first man, this perfect archangel whom Christians call Lucifer, went bad! He was perfect but he turned bad! He turned into a bad angel (excuse me, archangel). Did God create him to turn bad? No. Did God know that he would turn bad? No. Did God wish that he hadn’t turned bad? Yes. But was there anything God could do about it? No. Why did God’s first and greatest creation to that time, malfunction? How can a PERFECT creation by a PERFECT Creator ... malfunction? "Houston ... WE HAVE A PROBLEM"! God doesn’t have a problem; Christendom has a problem.And it is the BIGGEST single problem in all Christendom! It is huge. It is this very Satanic LIE that has given birth to the most evil doctrines on the face of the earth in the history of the world!

According to this Christian theory [hypothesis], the very first thing that The Omnipresent, Omnipotent, Omniscient, Creator God made, not only malfunctioned, but turned into a DAMNABLE, DIABOLICAL DEVIL! This devil has ever since, relentlessly wreaked havoc on every facet of God’s creation which will consummate with a lake of fire that will continue to insanely torture most of the human race for all eternity! Salvation is pictured as God’s nearly vain attempt to salvage but a few from the grasp of this colossal cosmic experiment gone amok! God’s Spiritual Frankenstein Monster has turned on Him and His children. And it has already been predetermined that Satan will be the final Victor when all the marbles are counted. Not a pretty picture. This is the god that the world of paganism is supposed to put their eternal confidence in! A god who cannot or will not protect his own children from this cosmic wolf in sheep's clothing. (Small "g" intended). And you think I am too hard on the doctrines of Christendom? You have no idea.

Hence it is Satan that is supposedly responsible for introducing evil into the world. Satan supposedly chose to disobey God and therefore we also must choose, on our own, by our own power, as to whether we will follow and obey Satan; or follow and obey God. This is the Christian position on this matter of good and evil is it not?

Not according to my understanding of Christianity.

Here it is, the magical source of man’s imagined deity. It is, of course, "HUMAN FREE WILL." Or, as in the case with Satan, "SATANIC FREE WILL." And just what is human and satanic free will? It is a fictitious power that Satan and all humans imagine they have, which gives them the power to make choices that have NO CAUSE. Do not mistake what I have said. Choice is not the power to MAKE choices. We all have that power. Choice is a power of the brain, mind, and spirit. It is a logical functioning mechanism. Even a sophisticated computer can "make choices" based on other data at its disposal contained in its memories. But making choices is not ... I repeat is NOT, judging, determining or selecting something BASED ON NOTHING!!!

God follows His own spiritual laws. "Free will" sounds like a marvelous and magical thing -- it is rather, however, the god of stupidity. It is the height of man’s foolishness and human wisdom. It is both ungodly and unscriptural! It is an affront to the Sovereignty of God. Man and Satan are not deities that can operate independently of the Creator! The theory is a hoax, a farce, a sham. Its only reality is as an IDOL OF THE HEART which will be burned out of every son whom God scourges.

Perhaps you missed my posting Galatians chapter 5, of which I recommended the whole chapter, and followed up by saying:

It would seem that free will is a spiritual thing, rather than a fleshly thing.​

Please notice This passage from Galatians 5:

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.​

Self-control is a fruit of the spirit. Free will and self-control are a spiritual thing, from God, and not from Satan. Rather slavery (lack of free will) is from Satan, in that we are enslaved by sin. More from Galatians 5:

1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.​

More from Galatians 5:

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.​

Our will is removed by the lusts of the flesh, and we do things we do not wish to do. (Does that sound like a fitting description of a lack of free-will?)

Of course all theologians are quick to point out that man does not possess total free will. Man's will is obviously limited we are told. Oh really? So it is "limited free will" that Satan and all humans possess is it? Does no one ever bother to question the contradictions of Christian doctrine?

I mentioned the scripture regarding self-control. That would mean that your free will is limited to your self.

"Iimited, a. restricted," Webster’s Twentieth Century Dictionary, page 963.

"free, a, without restriction," Webster’s Twentieth Century dictionary page, page 682.

"To will" requires a "work" of GOD! We all choose as we choose because there are things and forces and situations by the millions beyond anyone’s control that CAUSE US TO CHOOSE AS WE DO! It matters not that you cannot see or feel the cause. It is there and it does its work on you. And when causes make you choose, then that particular choice could not have ever been otherwise. God is the great CAUSE of all there is. I know Christians by the hundreds of millions deny it and deny God's Word that teaches it. That unbelief and lack of faith, however, does not change the facts of God’s Word or the laws of physics.

The bible in Genesis also tells us that God rested on the seventh day from his creating....

Genesis 2:1-3
1 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.​

I remain unconvinced that free-will is from Satan. The scripture says bondage to the flesh is contrary to the freedom of the Spirit, and the bondage to the flesh will cause us to do what we do not wish. Self-control and liberty are named as fruits of the Spirit, which runs contrary to the argument you are presenting. Therefore, I remain skeptical to your claim of our lack of free will.

 

[Azure24]

Not according to my understanding of Christianity.

Is that so?

Genesis also tells us that God rested on the seventh day from his creating....

Genesis 2:1-31 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

I know this...and!

The scripture says...and the bondage to the flesh will cause us to do what we do not wish.

Let's look at the discription of Free Will shall we

FREE: Able to act at will, not under compulsion or restraint.

WILL: To wish or to intend

You see that? (let's look particularly at Will... To wish or to intend)

I have a question Seattlegul....If the bondage of the flesh cause us to do what we do not wish (will). Then aren't we doing Satan's will (which is not Free will, but the ILLUSION of Free wil)?

Hence therefore

If we do what we wish (and the bondage of the flesh cause us not to do it) then surely what we wish (will) is to do good. Isn't it?

Hence therefore

To do good is also God's wish (will) isn't it?

Hence therefore

By doing good, we are doing God's wish (will) also isn't it?

Therefore...

By doing God's wish (will) we are doing GOD'S will not OUR'S!

 

[seattlegal]

Is that so?


I know this...and!


Let's look at the discription of Free Will shall we

FREE: Able to act at will, not under compulsion or restraint.

WILL: To wish or to intend

You see that? (let's look particularly at Will... To wish or to intend)

I have a question Seattlegul....If the bondage of the flesh cause us to do what we do not wish (will). Then aren't we doing Satan's will (which is not Free will, but the ILLUSION of Free wil)?

Hence therefore

If we do what we wish (and the bondage of the flesh cause us not to do it) then surely what we wish (will) is to do good. Isn't it?

Hence therefore

To do good is also God's wish (will) isn't it?

Hence therefore

By doing good, we are doing God's wish (will) also isn't it?

Therefore...

By doing God's wish (will) we are doing GOD'S will not OUR'S!

Just as we can resist the bonds of the flesh (with the help of the Spirit), we can also resist the Holy Spirit. Acts 7:51-53.

 

[Penguin]

Azure24, great posts!
God conditions what happens to us, although we can take different directions/methods on the path to the end, the destination is the same whatever. People translate this "alternative" direction/method as free will that's all. Step back and look in.

 

[cyberpi]

Yes even if I were in prison, gagged, bound, drugged, starved, sleep deprived, and tortured, then I would still have a free will. The will is where choices can be made, and none of them, not a single one of them, requires absolute control.

 

[Thomas]

If I may ... you seem to have a very negative (Calvinist?) view of humanity, but then I am a Catholic, so we might be accused of being overly-optimistic ...

If the bondage of the flesh cause us to do what we do not wish (will). Then aren't we doing Satan's will (which is not Free will, but the ILLUSION of Free wil)?

Not necessarily. What is shown is a weakness of the individual will, not the operation of an external source over which the individual has no control. To go against one's conscience, and then say 'the devil made me do it' is no excuse, it's a cop-out.

We know the choices, and we choose.

Now the options are there before us, thus all that is good stems from God, and all that is not good doesn't ... but we choose ... you are right to say that we have little or no say over the options available to us, but that is not the point, it's the choosing that counts.

Man can choose to resist God, or resist Satan, or resist himself:
"Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends." John 15:13

People rarely realise that to follow a religion involves, to some degree, 'laying down one's life' as it involves 'shouldering one's cross' ... but then from the outside the gift of faith is seen as a bind and a burden and a limitation of 'personal freedom' (the megamyth of modernity) ...

To sacrifice oneself for the sake of another requires one to overcome one's own animal instinct/will to survive. Many have done so, but not all do so for a religious motive.

Hence therefore
If we do what we wish (and the bondage of the flesh cause us not to do it) then surely what we wish (will) is to do good. Isn't it?

Not necessarily. Many people know smoking is killing them, but continue to smoke.

St Thomas Aquinas said that no man wills evil, but rather wills a lesser good. Thus one can will what is good (for me), but at the same time know it is a selfish action.

Hence therefore
To do good is also God's wish (will) isn't it?

Yes.

Hence therefore
By doing good, we are doing God's wish (will) also isn't it?

Yes.

Therefore...
By doing God's wish (will) we are doing GOD'S will not OUR'S!

No, not at all. The two just happen to coincide.

My kids do their own thing ... but they've never let me down, and I am enourmously proud of what they have done (so far ... fingers crossed) — but I would not assume, and hope to God, they are not who they are out of fear or my brainwashing them ... it just so happens that they, like their mother and father, hold the same values in common.

If you are arguing that there is no such thing as free will, then man can do no good, and by the same token man can do no evil, and by that selfsame rule, God is the source of all that is good, and all that is evil.

Which Caltholic theology does not allow.

And I think you're missing the point.

It's not about obeying God, it's not about doing God's will ... it's about knowing God, and loving God, and wanting to be with God ... it's about participation ... otherwise we wouldn't need to know about God at all, we might as well be automatons ... in fact animals.

Consider:
"And the Lord God having formed out of the ground all the beasts of
the earth, and all the fowls of the air, brought them to Adam to see
what he would call them: for whatsoever Adam called any living creature
the same is its name." Genesis 2:19 emphasis mine.

And ...

"And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven." Matthew 16:19

Both cases clearly show man's creative freedom, and furthermore I would suggest that were it possible, God 'delights' in human creativity ... we know that Jesus wept, but I am sure that He laughed, also.

I think you do man down, and sell God short ...

Thomas

 

[cyberpi]

...it's not about doing God's will ...

"Thy kingdom come, thy ___ be done."

One person's free will does not end where another starts. Two or more people can drive the same car together, but two people can not drive the same car in opposite directions and two cars can not be driven into the same space. Faith: will per the will of another.

Mark 11:22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, "Have faith in God."

 

[Thomas]

Faith: will per the will of another.

Exactly. Communio.

Thomas

 

[17th Angel]

What about the mentally ill and so on and so forth... Such as... (I am REALLY sorry, do not know the correct word for it) but when people are vegtablised? You know? Like no sight sound movement... So on and so forth... What level of free will is there?

 

[Thomas]

Well, obviously if the capacity to will is damaged, then there is none, is there?

Count yourself lucky...

Thomas

 

[17th Angel]

Well, obviously if the capacity to will is damaged, then there is none, is there?

Count yourself lucky...

Thomas

What?

Count yourself lucky....

 

[Quahom1]

What about the mentally ill and so on and so forth... Such as... (I am REALLY sorry, do not know the correct word for it) but when people are vegtablised? You know? Like no sight sound movement... So on and so forth... What level of free will is there?

Can't define will as the ability of a body to act or speak 17th. Will is the ability of a spirit to accept or reject.

The "Bird man" of Alcatraz, was imprisoned for life, yet he refused to remain so. He regained his freedom, through the care and unconditional love of birds, who were free to come and go as they pleased. They could not break his will, and so he remained free of will, and was admired for it. Indeed, he "captured" the hearts of guards and convicts alike, by his selfless dedication to the poorest of the avian genus, and the loyalty they gave him.

v/r

Q

 

[17th Angel]

Can't define will as the ability of a body to act or speak 17th. Will is the ability of a spirit to accept or reject.

The "Bird man" of Alcatraz, was imprisoned for life, yet he refused to remain so. He regained his freedom, through the care and unconditional love of birds, who were free to come and go as they pleased. They could not break his will, and so he remained free of will, and was admired for it. Indeed, he "captured" the hearts of guards and convicts alike, by his selfless dedication to the poorest of the avian genus, and the loyalty they gave him.

v/r

Q

NO! WAIT! I remember that!!! Wow... How did something like that just leave my memory...

 

[Quahom1]

NO! WAIT! I remember that!!! Wow... How did something like that just leave my memory...

There is also a movie you might consider, titled "Merry Christmas Mr. Lawrence". It stars of all people, David Bowee. But I think you will find the free will of the character, is unfettered by his captors, or captives, and indeed, this refusal to give his will up, changes many lives, for the better (how ironic).

It is not a happy ending movie, but the end gives hope and faith to move forward, regardless of what might be an obstacle.

v/r

Q

 

[lunamoth]

"The sin, both of men and angels, was rendered possible by the fact that God gave them free will: thus surrendering a portion of His omnipotence (it is again a deathlike or descending movement) because He saw that from a world of free creatures, even though they fell, He could work out (and this is the re-ascent) a deeper happiness and a fuller splendour than any world of automata would admit."

CS Lewis

 

[Azure24]

To go against one's conscience, and then say 'the devil made me do it' is no excuse, it's a cop-out.

I'm not saying people can say the devil made me do it. THEY did it. The Devil can't make anyone do anything, BUT the Devil creates the illussion of Free will...

We know the choices, and we choose.

I never said we can't make choices...

There was a time when I too was hoodwinked into believing that man has a "free will." I believed free will to be man’s ability to make choices, change his mind, learn from experiences, etc. And since it is a fact that man can indeed do these things, it seemed evident to me that man has free will. But then I learned that these are not the definition of free will at all....

...Free will does not actually and literally mean that one can make choices, create, change his mind, or reformulate ideas and data, etc., but that those choices and thought processes must themselves be free thoughts and free choices. "Free will" is only true if our choices are also free. But free from what? Why, free from being forced upon us against our will, or free from being caused by anyone or anything except our OWN will. And so, yes, man can think, process data, make choices, change his choices, etc. But none of these activities are free from internal or external CAUSES.

That man has a will, there is no debate. It is the teaching that man himself determines his own will, FREELY, without anything causing his will or his choices to be what they are. The idea of free will or free moral agency is that man can by himself unaided by anything else, originate his own choices of his will.

But does man actually possess such a power? And if he does, where is the proof? Now for all who have no confidence in the Scriptures, let me say that there is absolutely no scientific proof that man has a "free will" or the ability to make "uncaused choices." If such a freedom of the will existed, it should be possible to demonstrate it. But there is no such scientific demonstration that man can formulate thoughts and actions to which absolutely no cause whatsoever can be attributed.

And for all who do have confidence in the Scriptures, let me say equally dogmatically that there is absolutely no Scriptural proof for man having a "free will" or the ability to make "uncaused choices." In every case Scripture shows that it is God Who is behind the scene of all circumstances that influence and cause a man to make the one and only choice possible under any given circumstance. This law of "cause and effect" is stated and demonstrated time and again in Scripture. Ignorance of these behind the scenes causes does not disprove the fact that they are the actual and literal cause of our choices.

There are laws of science that men do not wish to carry over into his private and spiritual life. Why? Well, because he doesn’t like the ramifications of these laws. He does not want to admit that he is bound and controlled by laws. He wants to be "free"—free to be his own god, free to determine his own destiny, free to override the rule and dominance of God, free to rebel or free to obey, but freedom of the will at all cost.

I will admit that it is a real shock when we first come to understand that of ourselves we cannot make one "free" choice to do good. Something must cause that choice, but the carnal mind hates to be "caused" to do anything. "God gave all men free will," he shouts. God gave man no such thing. Free will is a phantom illusion that has deceived the whole world.

There is a connection between this thread and the "Hell is a Hoax" and "who is the beast of Revelation?" threads.

In the case of the latter thread "the man of sin," spoken of by Paul in I Thes. 2, resides not in a physical temple of stone and mortar in Jerusalem, but inside of each and every one of us. This man of sin sits in "the temple of God whose temple ye are." And God calls this man of sin, "a beast".

What possible power does man believe that he possesses which causes him to:

"…oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God [‘as a god’] sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God [‘is a god’]" (II Thes. 2:4)?

As long as this phantom god rules one’s heart, Jesus may only be "with us," but not really "IN us." For Jesus our King to sit in the heart of our temple, the man of sin must be put out, seeing that, "no man can serve two masters," and "what fellowship has light with darkness?"

Before the true spiritual conversion of Christ’s disciples, we read this:

"And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of Truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it sees Him not, neither knows Him: but ye know Him; for He dwells WITH you, and shall [at a future date when they are converted] be IN you" (John 14:16-17).

After years of following Jesus daily the apostles were not as yet converted. In the evening of the last Passover Jesus tells Peter:

"And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold Satan has desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat; But I have prayed for you, that your faith fall not: and when you are converted, strengthen your brethren" (Luke 22:31-32).

Yes indeed, "…when you are converted…." And just when might that be?

Up until the very last day with their Lord, the apostles all believed that they possessed the power of free will, which could enable them to choose their own destiny, and that they could and would have the strength of self determinism and free will to maintain that course. But Jesus told His disciples that they would all forsake Him. In other words, Jesus was foretelling of events that would cause (even ‘force,’ if you will) them to change their wills, against their previously stated wills. They of course, all denied that Jesus knew what He was talking about.

"And Jesus said unto them, all ye shall be offended because of Me this night; for it is written, I shall smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered" (Mark 14:27 & Zech. 13:7).

...thus all that is good stems from God, and all that is not good doesn't ...

Is this right? WRONG!

"That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside Me, I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, AND CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do ALL THESE THINGS" (Isaiah 45:6-7).

"…it is God [not man] which works in you BOTH TO WILL [God causes us ‘to will’] and TO DO [God causes us ‘to do’] of His good pleasure"

...you are right to say that we have little or no say over the options available to us, but that is not the point, it's the choosing that counts...

No, that is the point!

...No, not at all. The two just happen to coincide...

That's a strange coincidence isn't it?

Which Caltholic theology does not allow.

Fine, I did not say I agreed with Catholic theology.

It's not about obeying God, it's not about doing God's will ...

Do you realise what you are saying?

If you believe we have free will answer this question:

How did Jesus know that his deciples would deny him?

The scriptures say this:

Jesus answered, "I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me." (Luke 22:34)

Maybe you thought it said this:

"And Jesus said unto him [Peter] Verily I say unto you, That this day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shall deny me thrice, but then again, maybe you won’t deny Me three times, seeing that you have a free will that does not need to deny Me even once. It doesn’t depend on what I say, or circumstances brought about by My Father, or what God declares, but rather on your own free will."

 

[Quahom1]

"The sin, both of men and angels, was rendered possible by the fact that God gave them free will: thus surrendering a portion of His omnipotence (it is again a deathlike or descending movement) because He saw that from a world of free creatures, even though they fell, He could work out (and this is the re-ascent) a deeper happiness and a fuller splendour than any world of automata would admit."

CS Lewis

no more so than when a child falls in football, before his father. While his father looks on and encourages. the child learns to get up again. But it is the child that must decide to "get up again"...

v/r

Q

 

[Azure24]

...He could work out...

He could work out? I don't know what god (small g intended) this is, but it sure ain't the one in the Bible... The God I know is the one who has it all worked out...

no more so than when a child falls in football, before his father. While his father looks on and encourages. the child learns to get up again. But it is the child that must decide to "get up again"...

Nice, and where did you get that quote from? The Bible? Didn't thing so...

Instead you get this:

"You have NOT CHOSEN ME, but I have CHOSEN YOU…" (John 15:16).

Go on, go look it up now...

 

[Quahom1]

He could work out? I don't know what god (small g intended) this is, but it sure ain't the one in the Bible... The God I know is the one who has it all worked out...



Nice, and where did you get that quote from? The Bible? Didn't thing so...

Instead you get this:

"You have NOT CHOSEN ME, but I have CHOSEN YOU…" (John 15:16).

Go on, go look it up now...

Understood, and a man can chose "Yes" or "No", that is free will.

v/r

Q

 

[juantoo3]

"That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside Me, I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, AND CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do ALL THESE THINGS" (Isaiah 45:6-7).

Interlinear Isaiah 45:

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/isa45.pdf

Strong's H7451:

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

Note: the term "evil" is not in the sense of a being or personified "noun," it is in the sense of adversity or calamity, ethically bad, distress, etc., translated elsewhere as "wickedness," *not* the devil.

In my humble opinion this places a completely different complexion on the English text of Isaiah 45:7.