There is no such thing as 'Free Will'

citizenzen said:
It might be if I was the OP and was looking for the appropriate place to put my thread. But once a thread has been started and the discussion engaged, then I don't think it becomes a closed discussion involving only members of the faith titled in the thread. That, to me is a terribly limited and far less interesting discussion and a betrayal of what Interfaith is all about.
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I agree, I wasn't suggesting it be a closed discussion involving only members of the faith titled in a thread. I think it's the issue of not respecting the faith of the thread where it is couched that is of concern, a misdemeanour I know I've been guilty of. But it may also be a matter of perception; a neutral honest question may be perceived as an attack by some. What would definitely irritate me as a Christian would be a non-Christian telling me what Christianity is and isn't.

s.
 
Snoop said:
What would definitely irritate me as a Christian would be a non-Christian telling me what Christianity is and isn't.
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Replace Christian with Buddhist, Taoist, Jew, Muslim, whatever and that aptly describes the our interfaith forums within our forums.

Outside thought and perspectives are welcome, but the basis is the sacred documents of that religion...

ie don't kick sand...outside of your sandbox...

inside our own sandboxes we kick away discussing our infernal, I mean internal differences.
 
Snoopy said:
Please, it was not meant to be.

I meant...

Patti said "Life is eternal, and the choice we have to make is whether we wish to spend eternity in the light of God or in the darkness of our own "wisdom".
When I am hungry, God feeds me. When I am cold, God warms me. When I am weary, God gives me rest."

I'm not trying to be tricky; I'm just asking. I appreciate that each of us can only do so much as individuals. But my question is simply in response to what Patti said above. In other words (as I say in a previous post) - how do the people of Zimbabwe get provided with food from God? Many of course aren't, but it isn't through lack of choosing God - is it?

s.
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Not theirs, but OURS!
 
Snoopy said:
Please, it was not meant to be.

I meant...

Patti said "Life is eternal, and the choice we have to make is whether we wish to spend eternity in the light of God or in the darkness of our own "wisdom".
When I am hungry, God feeds me. When I am cold, God warms me. When I am weary, God gives me rest."

I'm not trying to be tricky; I'm just asking. I appreciate that each of us can only do so much as individuals. But my question is simply in response to what Patti said above. In other words (as I say in a previous post) - how do the people of Zimbabwe get provided with food from God? Many of course aren't, but it isn't through lack of choosing God - is it?

s.
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The short answer is, God is with them, pouring out mercy and grace. But this does not really address your concern, does it?
Christian scholars have long debated this very question: Why does a good God allow these things to happen?
Here’s the best I can do in a short reply. God granted to Adam a kind of limited sovereignty when He placed Adam in charge of the garden. Within the limits of justice and righteousness (as defined by God), man was given the opportunity to choose (this is a thread on free will!). Those choices would be meaningless without the consequences, good and bad, being played out. When Adam chose wrong, chose to make his own desires more important than those of his Creator, he set in motion a series of consequences which are still unfolding to this day. God in His mercy has limited the extent of those consequences, and uses the hardship and suffering to reveal Himself to us.
Even those of us who have accepted His revelation face suffering. The difference is that we know that this suffering is temporary, and exists to give us a chance to help others to understand that God loves them, and is not angry with them, and has put us here to help them as a reflection of this Love.
Let me ask you: If everyone who is a Christian today took this literally and gave sacrificially to those in need, what would that look like? This is what the early church (35-135 AD) did, and it changed the world.
 
pattimax said:
The short answer is, God is with them, pouring out mercy and grace. But this does not really address your concern, does it?
Christian scholars have long debated this very question: Why does a good God allow these things to happen?
Here’s the best I can do in a short reply. God granted to Adam a kind of limited sovereignty when He placed Adam in charge of the garden. Within the limits of justice and righteousness (as defined by God), man was given the opportunity to choose (this is a thread on free will!). Those choices would be meaningless without the consequences, good and bad, being played out. When Adam chose wrong, chose to make his own desires more important than those of his Creator, he set in motion a series of consequences which are still unfolding to this day. God in His mercy has limited the extent of those consequences, and uses the hardship and suffering to reveal Himself to us.
Even those of us who have accepted His revelation face suffering. The difference is that we know that this suffering is temporary, and exists to give us a chance to help others to understand that God loves them, and is not angry with them, and has put us here to help them as a reflection of this Love.
Let me ask you: If everyone who is a Christian today took this literally and gave sacrificially to those in need, what would that look like? This is what the early church (35-135 AD) did, and it changed the world.
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Thank you, I knew we could talk! - and I understand. :)

And guess what - I can't rep you again till I've spread some more around...:)

Snoopy.
 
Snoopy said:
I think it's the issue of not respecting the faith of the thread where it is couched that is of concern...
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So at the risk of being so egotistical that I see every situation as revolving around "me", could you show me where this issue of not respecting the faith is displayed?

I reviewed my posts leading up to pattimax's vehement declaration that this is a Christian thread (and Q1's rushing like a knight in rusting armor to defend her) and I found nothing to warrant the outburst.

Check out the history [somewhat excerpted]...
post205325

Pattimax — I have enjoyed our conversation. :)

post205326

Pattimax — That’s a very nice Buddhist argument. Before I address the specifics, let me make this more general comment:

Since this is the forum on Christianity, I must assume that you are here to investigate the possibility that Christianity, as a system of beliefs, has some kind of valid point. Otherwise, you would be better served to help your fellow Buddhists to more clearly understand their “role”.

CZ — Actually, the forum is on interfaith, and if you wanted to stick to solely Christian subject matter perhaps you would be better served posting in a forum solely dedicated to your faith.

I'm attempting to find some commonalities between our two faiths and to understand the differences. And just to be clear, I also have enjoyed our discussions.

post205328

pattimax — There is an essential difference between Buddhism and Christianity. Christians believe that there is, in fact, a single and universal truth, and that whatever denies this truth is, by definition, false. You said earlier that your beliefs were ok for you, and my beliefs were ok for me. I disagree. I believe that your beliefs will inevitably lead to your making a serious and fatal error that will result in an eternity of pain and agony for you.

I believe that what I have tried to explain to you is the truth. Hopefully you will eventually accept and acknowledge it; the truth will not condemn you to eternal separation from a God who loves you, who created you, and who desires to have your company.

Only one of us will turn out to be right.

CZ — Thankfully I'm Buddhist! It teaches one how to endure eternities of pain and agony.

But seriously, only one person will turn out to be right? How tragic it is that you've come to this point in your spiritual growth! Today I'm wrong for not believing Jesus Christ is my savior, tomorrow Mormons are wrong for believing he ministered Native Americans. Soon the gates to salvation are so small that they only fit people who think exactly like you!

So why did your God make people so different? Just to condemn the majority to eternities of pain and agony? That's a God you can keep company with, but not me. No wonder He hasn't spoken to me lately.

Pattimax, I too believe there is a universal truth. But like a shore of a lake, it does not exist in a single point. One can satisfy one's thirst by traveling from the North, South, East, West and an infinite number of points between. It's not a different truth that we believe in, but different pathways that lead to that truth.
​

And for this I get in return...
"Enjoy your eternity in darkness..." "When God said "turn the other cheek", he wasn't referring to butt cheeks..." "...when a man gets slugged in the face twice..." "...attempting to set a trap of the mind, or worse, the soul..."​

Just who, is showing disrespect for who here? I blame Immortalitylost and her cat. Those two have just been out of control! ;)
 
citizenzen said:
So at the risk of being so egotistical that I see every situation as revolving around "me", could you show me where this issue of not respecting the faith is displayed?

And for this I get in return...
"Enjoy your eternity in darkness..." "When God said "turn the other cheek", he wasn't referring to butt cheeks..." "...when a man gets slugged in the face twice..." "...attempting to set a trap of the mind, or worse, the soul..."​
Just who, is showing disrespect for who here? I blame Immortalitylost and her cat. Those two have just been out of control! ;)
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I think the general tone is of you trying to educate Patti (albeit politely) away from her erroneous (Christian) views. In the Christian forum I think this a little unreasonable to do.

...such as...(from various posts in this thread)

How tragic it is that you've come to this point in your spiritual growth!

So why did your God make people so different? Just to condemn the majority to eternities of pain and agony? That's a God you can keep company with, but not me. No wonder He hasn't spoken to me lately.

Your God, is God the yenta, God the nosey neighbor, God the over-bearing father.

I see that as an extremely limited view of God.

Why worry about what God experiences? I prefer to focus on what we do.

You (Christians) are the ones saying that God exists.

I am saying that I've never seen evidence that compels me to accept your claim.

Add God creating man in His image, Adam and Eve, Noah, the inerrancy of the Bible, a 10,000 year old Earth, virgin birth, resurrection and countless other claims (take your pick as which ones you accept or not) and your burden of proof becomes even greater.

The fact that we can't say what those reasons are does not make it more likely that God is the answer. We just don't know. And to conclude that God therefore exists is a leap of faith and not a product of evidence.


I do not defend being told to enjoy your eternity in darkness but if you rile a Christian such as Patti in the Christian forum it's hardly surprising. I too have been told (not by Patti) that I shall be spending eternity in hellfire so you won't be alone.

And I would never blame a cat. :p

s.
 
Snoopy said:
Got ya. Not sure why the phones are needed though.(or why it's also known as Chinese whispers). I've heard of this as a message being passed along the trenches in war. The message started off as "Send reinforcements - we're going to advance" but ends up as "Send three and four pence, we're going to a dance." :rolleyes:
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Lol. That's it, exactly. I've never heard that story before. Guess it'd suck if you were at war though. With luck being what it is, people'd think it was some messed up code for sit on top of the grenades and pull the pins, or something. :D

wil said:
ie don't kick sand...outside of your sandbox...

inside our own sandboxes we kick away discussing our infernal, I mean internal differences.
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I don't have a sandbox! *sobs*

citizenzen said:
I blame Immortalitylost and her cat. Those two have just been out of control! ;)
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Hey it's not my fault! Cats are just argumentative by nature, i swear! :p
Well, maybe it is my fault, just a little, _______ this much maybe?
I'm sorry! Don't hate me! I'm fragile!

Snoopy said:
I think the general tone is of you trying to educate Patti (albeit politely) away from her erroneous (Christian) views. In the Christian forum I think this a little unreasonable to do.

...such as...(from various posts in this thread)

How tragic it is that you've come to this point in your spiritual growth!

So why did your God make people so different? Just to condemn the majority to eternities of pain and agony? That's a God you can keep company with, but not me. No wonder He hasn't spoken to me lately.

Your God, is God the yenta, God the nosey neighbor, God the over-bearing father.

I see that as an extremely limited view of God.

Why worry about what God experiences? I prefer to focus on what we do.

You (Christians) are the ones saying that God exists.

I am saying that I've never seen evidence that compels me to accept your claim.

Add God creating man in His image, Adam and Eve, Noah, the inerrancy of the Bible, a 10,000 year old Earth, virgin birth, resurrection and countless other claims (take your pick as which ones you accept or not) and your burden of proof becomes even greater.

The fact that we can't say what those reasons are does not make it more likely that God is the answer. We just don't know. And to conclude that God therefore exists is a leap of faith and not a product of evidence.


I do not defend being told to enjoy your eternity in darkness but if you rile a Christian such as Patti in the Christian forum it's hardly surprising. I too have been told (not by Patti) that I shall be spending eternity in hellfire so you won't be alone.

And I would never blame a cat. :p

s.
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Ooo, schooled ya, J/k. Some of those posts were to me, and I take no offense. ;) I can't help but feel partly to blame for Patti sploding all hellfire and scary. Maybe it is my fault after all... *sobs again* :(

I'm with snoopy, don't blame the kitty! :D
 
pattimax said:
If there is a prize for quoting out of context, it's all yours.
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Remember, this was your original post - the last paragraph is especially worth highlighting:

pattimax said:
This IS the Christianity page.

I had the wrong idea about this forum. I had no idea this was a place where Christians were not permitted to explain their faith. Rather, this is a place where you all come to congratulate each other on being so much smarter than us, while you repeatedly misrepresent us and the God you do not believe in.
The condemnation, my dear friends, is all yours. Enjoy your eternity in darkness. Take care that you don’t actually read this Bible you are so knowledgeable about. And I, too, am glad you have prepared so thoroughly for an eternity of pain and agony.
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pattimax said:
The short answer is, God is with them, pouring out mercy and grace. But this does not really address your concern, does it?
Christian scholars have long debated this very question: Why does a good God allow these things to happen?
Here’s the best I can do in a short reply. God granted to Adam a kind of limited sovereignty when He placed Adam in charge of the garden. Within the limits of justice and righteousness (as defined by God), man was given the opportunity to choose (this is a thread on free will!). Those choices would be meaningless without the consequences, good and bad, being played out. When Adam chose wrong, chose to make his own desires more important than those of his Creator, he set in motion a series of consequences which are still unfolding to this day. God in His mercy has limited the extent of those consequences, and uses the hardship and suffering to reveal Himself to us.
Even those of us who have accepted His revelation face suffering. The difference is that we know that this suffering is temporary, and exists to give us a chance to help others to understand that God loves them, and is not angry with them, and has put us here to help them as a reflection of this Love.
Let me ask you: If everyone who is a Christian today took this literally and gave sacrificially to those in need, what would that look like? This is what the early church (35-135 AD) did, and it changed the world.
Click to expand...

This is great. (And relevant to the thread, as you pointed out.):D
I agree with you that God uses the hardship and suffering. Do you believe then that God uses the good, and the bad, because he created them? Truly interested in your views. You didn't respond to my last post. Was I right? :confused: Are you mad at me? :( I'm sorry if I offended you, can I be forgiven? :eek: I don't like it when people get mad at me. Especially if I don't know if they're mad at me or not... I'm goin' crazy over here! :eek:

Snoopy said:
Is this available in English?? :confused:
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"Oh, that showed you, my good chap! Just messing about!"

English enough for you? lol.
 
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