There is no such thing as 'Free Will'

seattlegal said:
In this case it is a meditation--your mind observing your mind, and how it works.
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Another thought:
We don't "decide" if an influence is going to be the strongest.
It just IS.
When we see a beautiful sunset, we don't "decide" that it is beautiful.
It just IS.
We don't "decide" that a certain argument is the most persuasive.
It just IS.
The strength of an influence is not dependent on us "choosing" how strong it is.
Our perception of its strength just happens.
It does not depend on our "choosing" it to be so.

seattlegal said:
John 13:34-35 Jesus said:
34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”
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That is a good point.
And I think a good definition of "love" in action is the GOLDEN RULE.
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
 
rodgertutt said:
Another thought:
We don't "decide" if an influence is going to be the strongest.
It just IS.
When we see a beautiful sunset, we don't "decide" that it is beautiful.
It just IS.
We don't "decide" that a certain argument is the most persuasive.
It just IS.
The strength of an influence is not dependent on us "choosing" how strong it is.
Our perception of its strength just happens.
It does not depend on our "choosing" it to be so.



That is a good point.
And I think a good definition of "love" in action is the GOLDEN RULE.
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
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How do you resolve your above claim when faced with this argument?
Dhammapada 1:1-5
1. All that we are is the result of what we have thought: it is founded on our thoughts, it is made up of our thoughts. If a man speaks or acts with an evil thought, pain follows him, as the wheel follows the foot of the ox that draws the carriage.
2. All that we are is the result of what we have thought: it is founded on our thoughts, it is made up of our thoughts. If a man speaks or acts with a pure thought, happiness follows him, like a shadow that never leaves him.
3. 'He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me,'--in those who harbour such thoughts hatred will never cease.
4. 'He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me,'--in those who do not harbour such thoughts hatred will cease.
5. For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by love, this is an old rule.
6. The world does not know that we must all come to an end here;--but those who know it, their quarrels cease at once.​
Our thoughts are what draws us. We can choose which thoughts to retain and take to heart, and which thoughts we allow to pass away. In this way, we can determine the power they have over us. That is what free will is all about. It's up to each of us to decide whether we want to control ourselves or not. However, the flesh, and its desires, will eventually come to an end here. However, we can choose to allow the harmful fleshly desires to cease while we are here.
The bible says much the same thing:
Galatians 5:16-26
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,[c] fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,[d] drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.​
This free-will is a gift of the Spirit, which we can chose to resist (as I have shown before on this thread.)

Keep this in mind, as well:
Genesis 4:6
6 So the LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.”​
 
rodgertutt said:
Another thought:
We don't "decide" if an influence is going to be the strongest.
It just IS.
Click to expand...
Precisely this is what I believe to be ABSOLUTELY FALSE. The only measure of "strength" that exists before our decision is in terms of electrical potentials and whatnot which do not determine the outcome, only make certain outcomes more likely, yet we are free to choose the less-likely, objectively weaker. Nothing about the influences themselves compels us.
 
bob x said:
Precisely this is what I believe to be ABSOLUTELY FALSE. The only measure of "strength" that exists before our decision is in terms of electrical potentials and whatnot which do not determine the outcome, only make certain outcomes more likely, yet we are free to choose the less-likely, objectively weaker. Nothing about the influences themselves compels us.
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Which leads us to the simple question...

Why?
 
seattlegal said:
This free-will is a gift of the Spirit,
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There is no such a thing as "free" will. Every choice we ever made was the only one we could have made at that split second in time. We chose what we preferred the MOST based on the reasons why we preferred them. It was not even possible that we could have chosen anything else. A few seconds before, or a few seconds after, there may have been considerations in our thinking that would have caused us to choose differently. But at that particular split-second in time we could only have chosen what we did choose.
CHOOSING WHAT IS CHOICE
biblical studies: His Achievement Are We - Part 9 - Choosing What Is Choice

seattlegal said:
which we can chose to resist
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The Spirit of God can temporarily be resisted by the will (but not the "free" will, since there is no such a thing) to teach lessons to each unique individual, but the Spirit of God's intention to eventually bring good out of all evil will never be defeated.
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
evil.html

seattlegal said:
Keep this in mind, as well:
Genesis 4:66 So the LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.”
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Cain should have, but he could not have "ruled over sin" at that particular point in time because the strongest influence on his mind at that particular split second in time was to kill his brother.

It is God's decretive will, (that which MUST occur), that everyone violates His preceptive (not perceptive) will (that which they OUGHT to do) (e.g. THE GOLDEN RULE) as much as they actually do.

God will eventually fit every unique individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.

Then, after God has finished using evil and suffering for the reasons why He allowed them to temporarily exist, He will then eradicate them from existence.
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
evil.html
 
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bob x said:
Precisely this is what I believe to be ABSOLUTELY FALSE. The only measure of "strength" that exists before our decision is in terms of electrical potentials and whatnot which do not determine the outcome, only make certain outcomes more likely, yet we are free to choose the less-likely, objectively weaker. Nothing about the influences themselves compels us.
Click to expand...

There is no such a thing as "free" will. Every choice we ever made was the only one we could have made at that split second in time. We chose what we preferred the MOST based on the reasons why we preferred them. It was not even possible that we could have chosen anything else. A few seconds before, or a few seconds after, there may have been considerations in our thinking that would have caused us to choose differently. But at that particular split-second in time we could only have chosen what we did choose.

We are not just "more likely" to have chosen the way we did.
It was not even possible that we could have made any other choice at that split second in time.

If we were to choose the so-called "less likely" or "weaker" influence, we would be demonstrating that we were mistaken about it being the weaker influence, because by choosing it we showed that at that particual split second in time it in fact had become a response to the STRONGEST sets of influences.
 
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rodgertutt said:
There is no such a thing as "free" will. Every choice we ever made was the only one we could have made at that split second in time. We chose what we preferred the MOST based on the reasons why we preferred them. It was not even possible that we could have chosen anything else. A few seconds before, or a few seconds after, there may have been considerations in our thinking that would have caused us to choose differently. But at that particular split-second in time we could only have chosen what we did choose.

We are not just "more likely" to have chosen the way we did.
It was not even possible that we could have made any other choice at that split second in time.
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Weeelllll, you are "free" to have that opinion, however others may think otherwise...and that is their "choice".

v/r

Q
 
rodgertutt said:
They will choose on the basis of whatever sets of influences are having the strongest effect on their mind, like all of us do.

Here is why I reject the "free" will concept.
biblical studies: His Achievement Are We - Part 16 - Choice and Deity
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Like weighing up one's options, and then choosing from those options, or shucking the whole thing and choosing none of the the above.

To me, that is "free will".

Regardless of strengths of pull or ultimate designs of a power...some choose to go their own way, despite that influence, or "coersion" as it were.

God doesn't like it, but God respects the choice a man makes.

That is the way it is.

v/r

Q
 
Quahom1 said:
Like weighing up one's options, and then choosing from those options, or shucking the whole thing and choosing none of the the above.
To me, that is "free will".
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The fact that we could not have chosen anything else at that particular split second in time shows that, although we chose voluntarily, our will was not "free" to choose anything but what we had determined that we preferred choosing the MOST. We simply could not have chosen what we did not prefer MOST.

Quahom1 said:
Regardless of strengths of pull or ultimate designs of a power...some choose to go their own way, despite that influence, or "coersion" as it were.
God doesn't like it, but God respects the choice a man makes.
That is the way it is.
Click to expand...

It is God's decretive will, (that which MUST occur), that everyone violates His preceptive (not perceptive) will (that which they OUGHT to do) (e.g. THE GOLDEN RULE) as much as they actually do.

The idea that it would not be "right" for God to hold us accountable for doing what we could not help but do is merely an ethical opinion that is rendered irrelevant by the irrefutable fact that WE ALWAYS, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, CHOOSE IN THE DIRECTION OF THE STRONGEST INFLUENCE, ALL OF THE TIME.

God will eventually fit every unique individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.
Then, after God has finished using evil and suffering for the reasons why He allowed them to temporarily exist, He will eradicate them from existence.
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
http://thegloryrd.com:80/apadams/evil.html
 
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I'm bringing this over from page #62 because I perceive it as my most important point.

Ray Prinzing once said, God never lets anyone get invloved in evil any further that what He intends to eventually make it better for them, and for everyone connected to them, that they were temporarily involved, because He is eventually going to transform all the negative results of evil into something better that they temporarily prevailed.

God will eventually fit every unique individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.

Then, after God has finished using evil and suffering for the reasons why He allowed them to temporarily exist, He will eradicate them from existence.
A.P. Adams is very good at expounding this point of view.
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
http://thegloryrd.com:80/apadams/evil.html
 
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rodgertutt said:
For those who believe the Bible, Romans 3:12 says that not just "some" but EVERYONE, without excepion, has "gone their own way."

And that will remain the condition of everyone until God changes their mind.
CHOOSING WHAT IS CHOICE
biblical studies: His Achievement Are We - Part 9 - Choosing What Is Choice
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Perhaps your are correct. Perhaps to GOD, there is no such thing as human free will. However, to us humans, there is no gaurantee that a man will do anything we think he will do. So to us the illusion of free will is real.
 
rodgertutt said:
If they occured exactly "at the same moment" they would cancel each other out, and no decision would occur at all.
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They would CANCEL EACH OTHER OUT?! :p:D:rolleyes:

Oh my God, this is even better than I thought it was!

Anyone here remember the scene from Road Trip where the boys are discussing what is and isn't cheating? And one of the guys says that if you sleep with two women who aren't your girlfriend on the same night it isn't cheating because they cancel each other out?

Now this all makes sense. Rodger is actually Tom Green.
 
Quahom1 said:
Perhaps your are correct. Perhaps to GOD, there is no such thing as human free will. However, to us humans, there is no gaurantee that a man will do anything we think he will do. So to us the illusion of free will is real.
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Very well put!
Especially the part about "free"-will being an "illusion." :)
 
Haven't you spent sixty pages denying over and over again that ANYBODY goes "their own" way, in direct contradiction to that scripture?
 
bob x said:
Haven't you spent sixty pages denying over and over again that ANYBODY goes "their own" way, in direct contradiction to that scripture?
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You are confusing will with "free" will.
Of course everyone goes their own way.
They voluntarily chose what they preferred.
Their will was not "free" to have chosen anything else but what they determined they preferred.
They HAD to have chosen what they did choose.

"therefore contrary choice or “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."
 
Marsh said:
They would CANCEL EACH OTHER OUT?! :p:D:rolleyes:
Oh my God, this is even better than I thought it was!
Anyone here remember the scene from Road Trip where the boys are discussing what is and isn't cheating? And one of the guys says that if you sleep with two women who aren't your girlfriend on the same night it isn't cheating because they cancel each other out?
Now this all makes sense. Rodger is actually Tom Green.
Click to expand...

I don't get the connection. :confused:

If it was even logically possible that two opposite decisions about making a choice could be made by the same person at exactly the same time, the result would most certainly be no choice at all.

The truth of the matter is that we could not have chosen any differenty that we did choose at the split second that we actually made the choice because we were acting on the reasons why we preferred that choice the MOST.

"therefore contrary choice or “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."
 
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