There is no such thing as 'Free Will'

shawn

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rodgertutt

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We have a "will" alright.
But there is no such a thing as "free" will.
Every choice we have ever made was the only choice we could have made at that particluar split-second in time because we made it in response to the reasons why we preferred that choice the MOST and consequently we could not have made any other choice.

"therefore contrary choice or “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."

THE WAY I SEE IT AS A UNIVERSALIST CHRISTIAN

Everything HAS to happen the way that it does, including all of our attempts to assist it, or prevent it from happening.
Theologically speaking, this is called God's DECRETIVE will (what God decrees), which is what MUST occur.

God also has a PRECEPTIVE (not to be mistaken for perceptive) will, which is what we OUGHT to do.
The "precept" that sums up God's preceptive will is THE GOLDEN RULE.
"DO UNTO OTHER AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU."

Because each person is unique, God will let us become involved in ignoring His "preceptive will" of love in varying degrees and varying lengths of time,
to teach us, and everyone connected to us, the lessons that He wants us to learn.

But God's intention to eventually transform the existence of evil and suffering into something better that they temporarily prevailed cannot be defeated, or even delayed, because God is always right on time with the working out of His plan of the ages.
CHART OF GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.

Quote from the above link
"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22).
But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control.
He is the eonian God, the God of the ages of time.
In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8:18-23).

A more extensive exposition on this subject can be read at
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
evil.html
 
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shawn

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I see that being so full of a preconceived notion, there is no openness for any real discussion, only the same repetitious and empty ideas.
It is like pouring tea into a full cup.
I am therefore opting out of this thread as there is no gold to be found be pursuing it.
 

rodgertutt

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I see that being so full of a preconceived notion, there is no openness for any real discussion, only the same repetitious and empty ideas.
It is like pouring tea into a full cup.
I am therefore opting out of this thread as there is no gold to be found be pursuing it.

Thank you Shawn for your contributions to this thread.
But IMO, there is nothing "preconceived" about the truth of theistic determinism.
Here is why I say that.
CHOICE AND DEITY
biblical studies: His Achievement Are We - Part 16 - Choice and Deity

To me, the truth of it is pure "gold."
 

juantoo3

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You are, of course, free to believe as you will.

In a Christian context, there cannot be sin without will to sin. Without will or sin, the Garden of Eden message and everything that follows is pointless.

Every other argument to the contrary, in a Christian context, is intellectual headbanging. No will = no sin = no need to be taught to differentiate right from wrong or good from evil = no need for Jesus or his teachings = no purpose or reason for the Bible.

What is even more important is that without free will there is no love. Love without free will is a mutually exclusive concept; love without free will is an oxymoron just like jumbo shrimp, amateur expert or devout atheist.

There is such a thing as a pointless philosophy that chases its own tail. I've already chased this one long enough to see it for what it is. Again, in a Christian context, if there is no free will then why did G-d even bother???

The whole crime and punishment concept falls on its butt without free will. Nitpicking over the word "free" fails to support the argument...if will is not free, it is not will. The devil in a Christian context, is the devil and consigned to punishment in hell because of his free will to oppose G-d. For choosing (free will) to oppose G-d, Lucifer was banished from the presence of G-d. If G-d intended (willed) Lucifer to oppose Him, then why create hell and punishment for Lucifer for doing what he was willed and ordained to do??? G-d, without mercy, merely creates those He wills to destroy (no matter how good they behave)? G-d, without remorse, merely creates others He wills to save (no matter how evil they behave)?

Now I realize not all religious philosophies, even Judaism, agree fully on these points. But it remains, in order for G-d to set anybody aside for opposing Him, they must first be freely able to oppose Him, and without free will to do so there is no opposition possible. Without free will G-d is no more than a fickle and frivolous puppetmaster akin to any of the Roman or Greek Pagan pantheon gods (which is decidedly and vigorously refuted!) that punishes or rewards arbitrarily according to the whim of a moment. The entire concept of saints and sinners falls on its face, heaven and hell have no meaning, and mass murderers have G-dly blessing while philanthropists rot in hell.

Christianity is therefore absolutely premised on the free will of the individual. The only motive I can imagine for a Christianity without free will is in order to attempt to justify contrary behavior...in which case why be a Christian? If the argument is "the devil made me do it," that's fine, at least there is acknowledgement that the free will choice has been made to sin (oppose G-d's will). If the argument is "I have not sinned because I cannot sin because all and everything (including everything I do) is in the will of G-d" then one completely misses the point of the entire philosophy of Christianity.

The whole lesson of free will comes down to "just because we can doesn't mean we should." Just because your brother has a fly on his head and you have a hammer in your hand doesn't mean you should use the hammer to swat the fly on your brother's head.
 
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rodgertutt

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You are, of course, free to believe as you will.
In a Christian context, there cannot be sin without will to sin. Without will or sin, the Garden of Eden message and everything that follows is pointless.
Every other argument to the contrary, in a Christian context, is intellectual headbanging. No will = no sin = no need to be taught to differentiate right from wrong or good from evil = no need for Jesus or his teachings = no purpose or reason for the Bible.

There is no such a thing as "free" will.

The introduction of sin was God's idea in order to form a foil for the display of His character. God WANTED Adam and Eve to sin.
But in itroducing sin, He Himself did not sin.
THE SOURCE OF SIN
biblical studies: The Problem Of Evil - Part One - Chapter Two - The Source Of Sin

What is even more important is that without free will there is no love. Love without free will is a mutually exclusive concept; love without free will is an oxymoron just like jumbo shrimp, amateur expert or devout atheist.

Sooner or later God's love will overwhelm all wills till it gets from everyone a loving response in return when He convices everyone that He has their best interest at heart.
WHAT GOD'S LOVE IF REALLY LIKE
God is Love: God Is Love! The Power of God's Love; Love Your Enemies! Knowing The Real Jesus

There is such a thing as a pointless philosophy that chases its own tail. I've already chased this one long enough to see it for what it is. Again, in a Christian context, if there is no free will then why did G-d even bother???

God will eventually fit every unique individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.

Then, after God has finished using evil and suffering for the reasons why He allowed them to temporarily exist, He will then eradicate them from existence.
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
evil.html
 
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shawn

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You are, of course, free to believe as you will.

In a Christian context, there cannot be sin without will to sin. Without will or sin, the Garden of Eden message and everything that follows is pointless.

Every other argument to the contrary, in a Christian context, is intellectual headbanging. No will = no sin = no need to be taught to differentiate right from wrong or good from evil = no need for Jesus or his teachings = no purpose or reason for the Bible.

What is even more important is that without free will there is no love. Love without free will is a mutually exclusive concept; love without free will is an oxymoron just like jumbo shrimp, amateur expert or devout atheist.

There is such a thing as a pointless philosophy that chases its own tail. I've already chased this one long enough to see it for what it is. Again, in a Christian context, if there is no free will then why did G-d even bother???

The whole crime and punishment concept falls on its butt without free will. Nitpicking over the word "free" fails to support the argument...if will is not free, it is not will. The devil in a Christian context, is the devil and consigned to punishment in hell because of his free will to oppose G-d. For choosing (free will) to oppose G-d, Lucifer was banished from the presence of G-d. If G-d intended (willed) Lucifer to oppose Him, then why create hell and punishment for Lucifer for doing what he was willed and ordained to do??? G-d, without mercy, merely creates those He wills to destroy (no matter how good they behave)? G-d, without remorse, wills others to save (no matter how evil they behave)?

Now I realize not all religious philosophies, even Judaism, agree fully on these points. But it remains, in order for G-d to set anybody aside for opposing Him, they must first be freely able to oppose Him, and without free will to do so there is no opposition possible. Without free will G-d is no more than a fickle and frivolous puppetmaster akin to any of the Roman or Greek Pagan pantheon gods (which is decidedly and vigorously refuted!) that punishes or rewards arbitrarily according to the whim of a moment. The entire concept of saints and sinners falls on its face, heaven and hell have no meaning, and mass murderers have G-dly blessing while philanthropists rot in hell.

Christianity is therefore absolutely premised on the free will of the individual. The only motive I can imagine for a Christianity without free will is in order to attempt to justify contrary behavior...in which case why be a Christian? If the argument is "the devil made me do it," that's fine, at least there is acknowledgement that the free will choice has been made to sin (oppose G-d's will). If the argument is "I have not sinned because I cannot sin because all and everything (including everything I do) is in the will of G-d" then one completely misses the point of the entire philosophy of Christianity.

The whole lesson of free will comes down to "just because we can doesn't mean we should." Just because your brother has a fly on his head and you have a hammer in your hand doesn't mean you should use the hammer to swat the fly on your brother's head.
All good points, but you are wasting your time attempting to dialogue here.
Repetitive and closed-minded are the order of this ideologue who is only seeking converts.
 

rodgertutt

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I see that being so full of a preconceived notion, there is no openness for any real discussion, only the same repetitious and empty ideas.
It is like pouring tea into a full cup.
I am therefore opting out of this thread as there is no gold to be found be pursuing it.

Webster says "preconceived" means "to form an idea or opinion beforehand."
"Free" willers "form the idea or opinion beforehand" that their will is "free" simply because they can choose.
But "free" will is an illusion.

Causality has always been true.
Choices never get made for no reason, even if the only reason is to commit ourself to a random choice, like flipping a coin.
It is the reason that we prefer one choice over another that causes us to make that choice.

It is not possible to have made any other choice but the one we deemed MOST preferable to make at that split-second in time.
A second before, or a second after, there may have been a reason why we would not make that choice due to considerations that were
non-existent when we actually did make the choice.
But at that split-second in time, when we actually did make the choice, it was the ONLY possible choice we could have made.

Here is how James Coram puts it:
"In any certain moment, either we have a given preference (and consequently effect a corresponding choice and action) or we do not.
We cannot have a new preference while our old preference still exists.
Nor can we make a new choice while we still have an old preference.
For the act of choosing is merely the exercise of existing preference.
One cannot prefer what is not yet preferable.
Yet when it becomes preferable it is preferred."

Theistic determinism is more precious than "gold" to me.

One believer in theistic determinism versed it this way:

THE WEAVING
"My life is but a weaving between my Lord and me:
I did not choose the colours - He worketh steadily;
Oft times He weaveth sorrow, and I, in foolish pride
Forget He sees the upper, and I the under side.
But when the loom is silent and the shuttles cease to fly,
Then He’ll unroll the weaving and explain the reason why.
The dark threads are as needful in the Weaver’s skilful hand,
As the threads of gold and silver in the pattern He has planned!"
Benjamine Malachi Franklin

A UNIVERSALIST CHRISTIAN POINT OF VIEW OF
Philippians 2:9-11
Every Knee Shall Bow
 

juantoo3

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All good points, but you are wasting your time attempting to dialogue here.
Repetitive and closed-minded are the order of this ideologue who is only seeking converts.

I know.

Sometimes messiah complexes need to be exposed for what they are.

Otherwise the truth is drowned in excessive droning of babble...
 

rodgertutt

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All good points, but you are wasting your time attempting to dialogue here.
Repetitive and closed-minded are the order of this ideologue who is only seeking converts.

No "converts" are sought by me.
Only folk who can benefit like I do from theistic determinism.
THE FALLACY OF "FREE" WILL
Man Is A Free Moral Agent: Just What Do You Mean Man is A Free Moral Agent; The Sinner Must Decide; The Shepherd Seeks The Sheep; The Will Of Man; I Will Draw All Men Unto Me; By One Man

I think what everyone should do is seek out the ideas that helps them the most and stick with that.
 
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rodgertutt

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I know.
Sometimes messiah complexes need to be exposed for what they are.
Otherwise the truth is drowned in excessive droning of babble...

Everyone has their own idea of what the "truth" is.
We will all stick with whatever we perceive is right about it.
Here is more on the reason why I rejcet the concept of "free" will.
ABOUT FREE WILL
aboutfreewillnote
 

rodgertutt

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Yes, you've said that, repeatedly.
What you fail to understand is this is a faulty premise...a faulty premise upon which this entire fallacy is built.
If will is *not* free, it is no longer "will."

Here is why I do not perceive it as "a faulty premise."

We have a "will" alright.
But there is no such a thing as "free" will.
Every choice we have ever made was the only choice we could have made at that particluar split-second in time because we made it in response to the reasons why we preferred that choice the MOST and consequently we could not have made any other choice.

"therefore contrary choice or “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."

THE WAY I SEE IT AS A UNIVERSALIST CHRISTIAN

Everything HAS to happen the way that it does, including all of our attempts to assist it, or prevent it from happening.
Theologically speaking, this is called God's DECRETIVE will (what God decrees), which is what MUST occur.

God also has a PRECEPTIVE (not to be mistaken for perceptive) will, which is what we OUGHT to do.
The "precept" that sums up God's preceptive will is THE GOLDEN RULE.
"DO UNTO OTHER AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU."

Because each person is unique, God will let us become involved in ignoring His "preceptive will" of love in varying degrees and varying lengths of time,
to teach us, and everyone connected to us, the lessons that He wants us to learn.

But God's intention to eventually transform the existence of evil and suffering into something better that they temporarily prevailed cannot be defeated, or even delayed, because God is always right on time with the working out of His plan of the ages.
CHART OF GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.

Quote from the above link
"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22).
But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control.
He is the eonian God, the God of the ages of time.
In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8:18-23).

A more extensive exposition on this subject can be read at
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
evil.html
 

rodgertutt

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No.
If "will" is not free, then we do not have *any* will, whatsoever.
We are slaves, nothing more.

We have a "will" alright. But in no way is it "free."

We do share one thing in common with a "slave" and that is causality.
Just like a slave is CAUSED to do what they do my their master.
So it is true that every choice we made was CAUSED by the reasons why we determined we preferred to choose one thing the MOST over another.
We could not have chose anything else at that split second in time.

Every choice we have ever made was the only choice we could have made at that particluar split-second in time because we made it in response to the reasons why we preferred that choice the MOST and consequently we could not have made any other choice.

"therefore contrary choice or “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."

Here is yet another link on why I reject the concept of "free" will.
CHOICE AND DEITY
biblical studies: His Achievement Are We - Part 16 - Choice and Deity
 
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juantoo3

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We do share one thing in common with a "slave" and that is causality.
Just like a slave is CAUSED to do what they do my their master.
So it is true that every choice we made was CAUSED by the reasons why we determined we preferred to choose one thing the MOST over another.

If every choice is "caused" from outside, in this case by G-d, then there is no will involved.

You cannot be a slave and still have a will...you contradict yourself.
 

rodgertutt

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If every choice is "caused" from outside, in this case by G-d, then there is no will involved.

We choose whatever our reason is telling us we prefer the MOST.
We cannot choose anything else.

"therefore contrary choice or “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."

You cannot be a slave and still have a will...you contradict yourself.

Slaves do have a will. But they do not have a "free" will.
They choose what their masters tell them to.
The slave prefers choosing to obey their master because they do not want to suffer the consequenses for not doing so.
 
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rodgertutt

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Yet another link on why I reject the concept of "free" will.
Free Will and the "Oh Well!" Creed - Calvinism and Arminianism

Webster says "preconceived" means "to form an idea or opinion beforehand."
"Free" willers "form the idea or opinion beforehand" that their will is "free" simply because they can choose.
But "free" will is an illusion.

Causality has always been true.
Choices never get made for no reason, even if the only reason is to commit ourself to a random choice, like flipping a coin.
It is the reason that we prefer one choice over another that causes us to make that choice.

It is not possible to have made any other choice but the one we deemed MOST preferable to make at that split-second in time.
A second before, or a second after, there may have been a reason why we would not make that choice due to considerations that were non-existent when we actually did make the choice.
But at that split-second in time, when we actually did make the choice, it was the ONLY possible choice we could have made.

Here is how James Coram puts it:
"In any certain moment, either we have a given preference (and consequently effect a corresponding choice and action) or we do not.
We cannot have a new preference while our old preference still exists.
Nor can we make a new choice while we still have an old preference.
For the act of choosing is merely the exercise of existing preference.
One cannot prefer what is not yet preferable.
Yet when it becomes preferable it is preferred."

"therefore contrary choice or “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."

Theistic determinism is more precious than "gold" to me.

One believer in theistic determinism versed it this way:

THE WEAVING
"My life is but a weaving between my Lord and me:
I did not choose the colours - He worketh steadily;
Oft times He weaveth sorrow, and I, in foolish pride
Forget He sees the upper, and I the under side.
But when the loom is silent and the shuttles cease to fly,
Then He’ll unroll the weaving and explain the reason why.
The dark threads are as needful in the Weaver’s skilful hand,
As the threads of gold and silver in the pattern He has planned!"
Benjamine Malachi Franklin
 
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bob x

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You are confusing will with "free" will.
I'm not the one who is confused here.
Their will was not "free" to have chosen anything else but what they determined they preferred.
Emphasis added. Nothing about the influences or reasons determines which one will be preferred.
They HAD to have chosen what they did choose.
They COULD HAVE chosen the other. Just as easily, if the "influences" and "reasons" are about of the same objective strength; with more difficulty, but still possibly, if influences toward the rejected choice were objectively weaker than those toward the choice that actually happened; or more easily, in those cases which do occur when the influences toward the other choice were actually stronger, objectively speaking, but the actual choice was to reject them anyway.
rodgertutt said:
If it was even logically possible that two opposite decisions about making a choice could be made by the same person at exactly the same time, the result would most certainly be no choice at all.
Nope. The result is one choice, and which one that will be is determined by nothing except the will.
 
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