# Challenge - Prove it!!

I believe that when I die I shall be judged for my deeds in this life but no angel has ever turned up and told me so - I have faith in something I cannot see or prove but that faith is individual to me.

And you judge yourself as you live for your deeds.....

Ma salama.

Toss away matey... we love a good toss around here

Where did God stand when God created everything?
In Quantum Physics the Big Bang theory has been modified. Its no longer an explode, expand, retract, repeat ad infinitum. They now put forth that when two membranes (basically universes, usually shortened to brane) touched then an opening was created which caused the empty one to receive a huge influx of matter/energy which has been expanding ever since. Id love to see that famous panting of God reaching out his finger to Adam being redone as God poking his finger thru a membrane. It also throws into question all disproves using "matter/energy cannot be destroyed or created but only converted". Magic, miracles, spirits, etc. The rule is still true but we now have a possible source we could not measure.

Why is the answer to God that we cannot fathom God?
In Quantum Physics they have settled into 10+1 dimensions (10 dimensions with laws and one of chaos which is required for balance). The 1 dimensional life (plants and non-moving microbes) are impacted by ocassional contact with 2 dimensional creatures (microbes living on one surface with an X,Y movement). Also 2D creatures have contact from 3d (the animals we know which understand X,Y,Z worlds of left/right/up/down). The 3D creatures of the earth have occassional contact with the 4D creatures (thats us, X,Y,Z, and time). In each case, the level above is unfathomable. A bear in the woods experiences man but with no understanding of time is unable to fathom the actions of man.

So far, thats 4 of the 10 dimensions. That alone should spark some interest. What if angels are 6D? What if God is 10D? And thats not even mentioning the possibilities of 11D (Cthulhu?)

hello gd1628

i thought that cthulu was just a character in a book? what gives?

Why is the answer to God that we cannot fathom God?
What is the driving force that keeps us seeking and progressing {to cut to the chase--living?} I would say that the pursuit of the unknown plays a very large part in this. If you answer the "Ultimate Question," what else is there to keep us seeking and progressing? What could possibly replace that drive? If we quit seeking and progressing, will entropy catch up with us and suck the life out of us?

hello gd1628

i thought that cthulu was just a character in a book? what gives?
He is but as a reference to a god for the dimension of chaos he was the best example I could come up with. I didnt want to limit to something like Satan, particularly seeming to place it higher than the 10th reference

He is but as a reference to a god for the dimension of chaos he was the best example I could come up with. I didnt want to limit to something like Satan, particularly seeming to place it higher than the 10th reference

so let me see if i understand you correctly, according to dimensions, they aren't like places like they are explained in sci fi movies but are really points of views from individual creatures? if so this makes so much sense. scientifically speaking, of course. spiritually? to me nothing makes sense for that matter! it is in this "dimension" that if we can see the spiritual dimension, then we are one with God and if we are one with Him, we see all dimensions all at once. but according to your dimension theory, the 4th dimension is keeping us from seeing all of God's creation. maybe the 4th dimension is sin? am i close?

All I am saying is that if we are going to take our faith outside of ourselves and insist that others believe as we do or tell them they are going to hell for their beliefs then we should have some pretty strong proof of our beliefs to back us up.

Streuth

Are we going to insist? Who are we? Insistence is what has got the peoples of the world in the mess we're in, I think.

This going to hell thing seems a bit popular. Is it everywhere?

s.

Where did God stand when God created everything?
In Quantum Physics the Big Bang theory has been modified. Its no longer an explode, expand, retract, repeat ad infinitum. They now put forth that when two membranes (basically universes, usually shortened to brane) touched then an opening was created which caused the empty one to receive a huge influx of matter/energy which has been expanding ever since. Id love to see that famous panting of God reaching out his finger to Adam being redone as God poking his finger thru a membrane. It also throws into question all disproves using "matter/energy cannot be destroyed or created but only converted". Magic, miracles, spirits, etc. The rule is still true but we now have a possible source we could not measure.

The trouble with the search for the Grand Unified Theory is that there are a lot of physicists relying on GUT instinct as to which direction they should follow their equations. Dont get me wrong here, I love Brane theory. But even amongst those theorists that support it there are as many versions of it as there are theorists. This is not bad, indeed it seems to be that wherever they allow their gut instincts to roam they find that they are each contributing a pixel or two toward that grand aim. But I think we are as yet a long, long way from from being able to reach even preliminary consensus on the physics that governs inter-brane energy/matter transfer.

It seems to me that when you refer to miracles, majic, spirits etc you are actually referring to something more akin to the Zero Point Field, or Quantum Matrix, which, it is propositioned, may be the fabric upon which even Branes themselves would hang. Remember Branes cannot exist in multiples without there being some medium in which they all coexist. It appears, from some recent papers that have been published, that Brane structure as inferred from the Background Microwave Survey must be held together by Cosmic Strings, which were largely ignored in favour of the previously competing Brane theory. Cosmic Strings, (not to be confused with " Superstrings", the tiny quantum level vibrating strings, though they me be intimately related as I will explain later), are funny things to get ones head round. The super dense matter they are made of is held in exactly the same state that it was "locked" into in the first few billionths of a second after the Big Bang, (or the time when point of contact was made between the two colliding Branes) at the end period of initial inflation. This composition is in defiance of many of the fundamental laws as they hold in the rest of our universe. Finding one would not only prove Brane theory and the Zero Point Field but allow a glimpse into the dynamics of inter-brane exchanges. Cosmic strings are not infinite. They can be many billions of light years long, (and only a proton thick), but they do have beginnings and ends. Could it be that Supermassive Black Holes are what it takes to cap the primordial energy they contain? Certainly the physics demand that some very special conditions must exist at either end. Supermassive Black Holes must be a prime candidate. I have not seen this postulated yet but I will explain why.

In experiments using the rare isotope of Helium-3 supercooled to two thousandths of a degree above absolute zero we can create a superfluid that assumes very special properties. It is a featureless, smooth exotic liquid that flows with zero resistance and even defies the laws of gravity and can flow "up". There is only one place in the observable universe where you find such conditions that a superfluid can naturally exist. A Black Hole. In these experiments when the helium-3 is "flash" supercooled it forms within its structure, for a very short time, filaments that are identical to what Super String theorists propose their strings should look like. As the cooling gets colder they disappear. Only a black hole can "cap" this amount of energy.

My thinking is that the Quantum Matrix is the repository, or library, of the possible states that matter/energy can take. I believe, this is only my gut theory, that they are limited but not by scale. In fact I think the multiverse is probably a repetition of the same laws but the scale of magnitude is altered. A bit like Russian dolls. And when you consider that a Black Hole that was the proposed size of our entire "local" universe would have about the same mass as that we observe in our local universe you just have to add 2+2 and get....you guessed it 42!!

If this is all true I believe it provides compelling evidence for the non-existence of God. Who needs God when you have a very few fundamental forces or laws. And just as an aside if God created these forces/laws then he did himself out of a job and promptly disinvented himself as he couldn't hack being obsolete.

Why is the answer to God that we cannot fathom God?
In Quantum Physics they have settled into 10+1 dimensions (10 dimensions with laws and one of chaos which is required for balance). The 1 dimensional life (plants and non-moving microbes) are impacted by ocassional contact with 2 dimensional creatures (microbes living on one surface with an X,Y movement). Also 2D creatures have contact from 3d (the animals we know which understand X,Y,Z worlds of left/right/up/down). The 3D creatures of the earth have occassional contact with the 4D creatures (thats us, X,Y,Z, and time). In each case, the level above is unfathomable. A bear in the woods experiences man but with no understanding of time is unable to fathom the actions of man.

So far, thats 4 of the 10 dimensions. That alone should spark some interest. What if angels are 6D? What if God is 10D? And thats not even mentioning the possibilities of 11D (Cthulhu?)
Here I think you misunderstand how the dimensions fold. Plants and even the tiniest of microbes live in the same 3+time dimensions as we do, (I believe we actually live in all, if thats how many there are, but most are so tiny we could not see them even if we were equipped to do so, which we are not). I think you are confusing orders of magnitude with dimensional space and anthropomorphising fathomability onto organisms that bear no concept of them. This creates false thinking. I personally believe that both exist, multiple dimensions and degrees of magnitude. And I believe that the same former is a property of all the latter. Really if you want to understand all the notions of how supernatural ideas, spirits, even memories in our own brains, (which have physically not one cell in them from the brains we had a decade ago), then all notions of dimensions can be ignored. I think such information is recorded somehow in the Zero Point Field. The web upon which all the dimensions, realities, branes, universes etc hang. Time, as we perceive it is an illusion. Remove it and all supernatural occurences have an explanation. The ability of a quantum superstring to be anywhere at any time containing any information. If God was in control of such a communication system then there would be no need for all the crazy books that purport to carry "his will". We would all know it instantly, whenever he chose. So all the books which claim divine origin are simply the works of man, as I always state.

Tao

If God was in control of such a communication system then there would be no need for all the crazy books that purport to carry "his will". We would all know it instantly, whenever he chose. So all the books which claim divine origin are simply the works of man, as I always state.

Tao

Very interesting discussion.
I do feel that dimensions is overly used and causes confusion. There should be a new word for it in reference to 3D and in reference to it as an alternate reality. (the second falls into a particular theory of mine concerning time travel)

But I did want to make one point real quick. I agree with your belief on books. As long as its put forth as a belief then we can all treat it as fairly as we treat each others beliefs here.

As long as its put forth as a belief then we can all treat it as fairly as we treat each others beliefs here.
My 'belief' is you cannot come to a forum like this expecting everybody to agree with your beliefs. I endeavour to respect the opinions of all, but sometimes I just cannot. When that happens I endeavour to be polite about it...but admittedly I occasionally fail.

The explanation of my ideas on both Black Holes and quantum superstrings were way to rushed in that last post and I have not clearly put across what I was trying to say... but thats really off topic anyway and I will save it for another thread.

Tao

If we quit seeking and progressing, will entropy catch up with us and suck the life out of us?
It would certainly slough the wind right outta my sails.

In experiments using the rare isotope of Helium-3 supercooled to two thousandths of a degree above absolute zero we can create a superfluid that assumes very special properties. It is a featureless, smooth exotic liquid that flows with zero resistance and even defies the laws of gravity and can flow "up". There is only one place in the observable universe where you find such conditions that a superfluid can naturally exist. A Black Hole. In these experiments when the helium-3 is "flash" supercooled it forms within its structure, for a very short time, filaments that are identical to what Super String theorists propose their strings should look like. As the cooling gets colder they disappear. Only a black hole can "cap" this amount of energy.
This is an interesting thought Tao. How would being in a centrifuge (sp?) affect the creation and application of this liquid? It seems to me if this liquid could defy gravity it would "leak out" of black holes by virtue of centrifical (sp?) force, much like the EMR bursts that occur from time to time as stars get sucked in.

It would certainly slough the wind right outta my sails.
By thinking we know the answer to the Big Question, are we cutting ourselves off from it? {Is that why cows say mu?--A reminder for us to unask that question?}

By thinking we know the answer to the Big Question, are we cutting ourselves off from it? {Is that why cows say mu?--A reminder for us to unask that question?}
That is a very intriguing question.

How can we be certain of its relevence to the Big Picture?

How can we be certain of the value of unknowing (what we believe is) the answer? Not that I disagree, surely a sealed mind is prone to entropy. But the value of the search is still a human construct, is it not? Perhaps, just perhaps, there *is* something we are supposed to know.

That is a very intriguing question.

How can we be certain of its relevence to the Big Picture?

How can we be certain of the value of unknowing (what we believe is) the answer? Not that I disagree, surely a sealed mind is prone to entropy. But the value of the search is still a human construct, is it not? Perhaps, just perhaps, there *is* something we are supposed to know.
I would have to agree with that. Perhaps knowing that we don't know is what unseals our mind, and keeps us from wanting to try to seal other peoples' minds.

This is an interesting thought Tao. How would being in a centrifuge (sp?) affect the creation and application of this liquid? It seems to me if this liquid could defy gravity it would "leak out" of black holes by virtue of centrifical (sp?) force, much like the EMR bursts that occur from time to time as stars get sucked in.

As I understand it the gravity well that creates that in-circling toward the event horizon of nearby matter is not really like a centrifuge at all. A centrifuge would throw matter outwards, gravity sucks in. The burping of black holes is a side effect of the transition zone at an event horizon. Beyond the event horizon physics suggests the extreme mass of the black hole creates the coldest, stillest regions we can contemplate. So still and so cold and so dense that the individual atoms break down and lose their individual identity.
There appears to be a relationship between galactic mass, black hole mass and the amount of time a feeding or active SMBH takes to settle down. All the quasars that so recently mystified us are now known to be very active feeding SMBH's. And all are observed at a very great distance and so much closer on the timeline of the universe to the Big Bang/Rip. The closer the galaxy with a feeder is to us the more massive it tends to be. So we can maybe hypothesise that there is a relationship between the energy the black hole is trying to contain, or cap, and the size of the galaxy/SMBH.

Matter eruptions from active SMBH's may be the escape of exotic matter from the end of one of the Super Strings. An analogy would be a lava plume deep within the mantle forcing its way upward to eject as a volcano. In this case the mantle would be the quantum state mass of the SMBH. The reason the material in such a plume would be able to do this would be that the exotic particles that make the Super String, (particles that ceased to exist anywhere in the normally observable universe micro-seconds after the big bang), had not yet been "balanced" by the galactic/SMBH's total mass. As the exotic matter leaves the event horizon on its outward journey it immediately decays into standard matter, adding mass to the galaxy/SMBH till the equilibrium point is reached where the String end is finally capped. Thus we see that this pattern between galactic mass, age and the state of its SMBH all fit nicely into such a theory.

In the man made experiments with helium-3 I stated we can observe the creation of filaments that seem to confirm matter does create strings. These experiments also clearly show that once the quantum superfluid state is achieved then these strings are neutralised. However,with helium-3 you are not creating nor neutralising the exotic particles that existed in the early universe before they decayed into the normal matter we are familiar with. The energy of these exotic particles is immense. A gigantic plume from an ejecting SMBH may be caused by only the tiniest amount of Super String material.

That each string has an SMBH at each end is not at all like the science fiction idea of Black Hole wormholes that we may one day harness for travel. String matter is alien stuff, its interaction with normal matter would always be an explosive event. But the extreme mass and thus gravity of these Super Strings should one day be detectable. I am sure we will invent the instruments that reveal a vast web of criss-crossing filaments that reveal the primordial structure, like some tapestry on which our universe is woven. My only hope is that I live long enough for the next generation of physicists and cosmologists to start revealing the interactions between that tapestry and bigger and smaller ones.

Tao

By thinking we know the answer to the Big Question, are we cutting ourselves off from it? {Is that why cows say mu?--A reminder for us to unask that question?}

We can know and we can know. Its whether you define that knowing as definitive or complete or not that counts. Knowing that what I know will change is the only complete knowing that I have.

Tao

why are all the easy to assemble things writen in ancient chinese.???

why are all the easy to assemble things writen in ancient chinese.???
Great question, greymare!
You know, since Chinese isn't specifically written phonetically, it can be read and understood by those speaking different dialects. (Sort of analogous to people who speak different languages using sign language to communicate.) Neither are dependent upon the spoken word. {Interesting!}

As I understand it the gravity well that creates that in-circling toward the event horizon of nearby matter is not really like a centrifuge at all. A centrifuge would throw matter outwards, gravity sucks in. The burping of black holes is a side effect of the transition zone at an event horizon. Beyond the event horizon physics suggests the extreme mass of the black hole creates the coldest, stillest regions we can contemplate. So still and so cold and so dense that the individual atoms break down and lose their individual identity.
I agree that is one line of speculation. I seriously doubt my Statistics Prof. would agree. Her doctorate was in astrophysics, and I loved talking to her about her doctoral thesis which was on black holes and quasars.

The key component I have always seen missing in everybody else's speculations is the act of rotation. It seems everything in the universe rotates, why shouldn't a black hole?

If you take your hypothesis and rotate it violently, what would be the end result be, particularly if you are speaking of the effect on a super-cooled fluid that defies gravity?

I'll give a hint, the jets are not at the equator....they are at the poles.