Who understands what the goal of the religion of Judasim is?

[Bishadi]

Jonah was earlier than Nahum.

i understand

as well in genesis the earth was created in a few days; so maybe the 40 days was counted different.....

all the same; God said he would destroy the city and did.

just as some share the words of an old book and then the items comes true another day.....

it seems that since nothing can be certain other than; it was a city, it was destroyed; as archeologically recognized and identified

just sticking to the nuts and bolts

what occurred is a point was being made..... i.e... about Judaism

and in the context, a suggestion was made that items of prophecy have not been avoided. meaning; nothing will change what was written as if we can avert a future event

they shared the story of Jonah as a defense and i shared oooops, they be wrong even if their own story says otherwise, it seems that with the nuts and bolts of observation; the city was destroyed and nothing can change that.

as like I just did with the creation in a few days representation; we all know existence is billions of years old (nuts and bolts reality) and the rendition of 40 days could mean just about anything, if we all want to get technical about the literary view..

 

[dauer]

dauer, just because you feel well versed in your sect; please be aware there are folk you have 1000 times the amount of observance and depth than you may be aware of

Again, not about my sect. I don't belong to a denomination (that is the meaning of post-denominational) and I've presented sources from multiple denominations. I have presented the majority Jewish opinion. You continue to reveal your own ignorance and your inability to either understand or accept what others who know much more than you about these issues have told you. You should admit your ignorance of Judaism instead of grasping at straws. And as seattlegal points out, your sources aren't even Jewish.

just imagine is the hammer was walking around right now; do you actually think he will share preference to any sect?

I don't even know what that means. Do you mean Judah Maccabee? Judaism changes and evolves over time, like all religion. The maccabees were in one sense actually bad for Judaism because they led to the Hashmonean dynasty which placed the monarchy in the hands of the priesthood.

i.e.... the true star of the line of David is the 5 pointer.......

That doesn't make any sense either. Firstly, a star is not a traditional association with the shield of David. It's something that came later. The 6-sided star is found in many cultures. Over time it became associated with Israel. It is more likely that a lion was on David's shield, but that is not conclusive, just theory.

as well who will guide the 12 tribes but the 13th seat

Could you please not speak gibberish? Thanks.

please be aware, there is much more to learn, then your one rendition of faith

I'm not presenting my own rendition. I'm presenting the majority view. And I have said from the start that there are minority views. In this case, the rest of us think they're nutcases. I get the sense you just argue for the sake of arguing since you argue things that I've never disagreed with. Either that or you're much more ignorant of the English language than I originally suspected and have a lot of difficulty understanding it and using it effectively.

and if you like comparative doctrine, be prepared to be educated by even the lowly.... as the arrogant of faith will die the most horrible death

Heed your words, Bishadi. You are pretentious and arrogant and close your ears to those who know more than you do about the subjects which you speak of.

 

[Bishadi]

from the first post, you shared a kindness

the rest of this whole thread is about what little you think of the knowledge i may comprehend

so basically all that has been proven is that you have no concern for anything other than what you believe judaism represents as well that the description of you being kind is not going to be understood by anyone reading this thread

the goal of judaism in palestine contradicts what you believe and according to your interpretation, the majority of the worlds jewish community.

then please, share with us why Israel exists in a land surrounded by folk that do not want them there?

since i have no idea what Judaism is about, then please share why they chose that site?


religiously speaking of course

 

[Raksha]

what occurred is a point was being made..... i.e... about Judaism

Obviously, but WHAT is the point being made? What is your agenda?

Are you an anti-Semite ACCUSING us (despite our repeated denials) of plotting to start WWIII by tearing down the Dome of the Rock, or are you a Christian Zionist accusing us of moral cowardice, since the overwhelming majority of us DO NOT advocate starting WWIII by tearing down the Dome of Rock?

It's got to be one or the other, because here you have three Jews (different denominations and post-denominational) all telling you the Temple Mount Faithful or whatever they call themselves DO NOT represent mainstream Judaism of any denomination! And yet you keep twisting our words to mean the opposite of what we're saying.

Why are you doing that? For whatever reason, you appear to be trying to start a full-blown jihad here, and I find that highly disturbing.

--Linda

 

[dauer]

the rest of this whole thread is about what little you think of the knowledge i may comprehend

No, this thread consists refutations of your ignorant posts.

so basically all that has been proven is that you have no concern for anything other than what you believe judaism represents as well that the description of you being kind is not going to be understood by anyone reading this thread

No, what has been shown is that you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to Judaism and that you have no respect for the views of others about their own religions. Have you noticed that a number of people have come to my defense? They don't see me as unkind. They recognize that I'm dealing with an ignorant triumphalist who's convinced that he knows more about other people's religions than they do and am justifiably frustrated by your blind ignorance and claims to truth about things you know nothing about.

the goal of judaism in palestine contradicts what you believe and according to your interpretation, the majority of the worlds jewish community.

Incorrect. What you have presented is not the goal of Judaism in palestine nor is there a cohesive Jewish goal for Palestine. The existing state of Israel is not a religious entity. It is a political entity. It does not operate according to halachah.

then please, share with us why Israel exists in a land surrounded by folk that do not want them there?

For political, not religious reasons. A few people have already explained that to you.

since i have no idea what Judaism is about, then please share why they chose that site?

Originally another location was considered, in Eastern Europe for a Jewish state. In light of the persecution during WWII which was a continuation of a long history of persecution and the pressure of secular zionists in Israel the UN made Israel a separate nation. There may be other socio-economic factors that I am unaware of.

-- Dauer

 

[Raksha]

since i have no idea what Judaism is about, then please share why they chose that site?

Because it's our ancestral homeland and our ties to that place run very deep. When the survivors of the Holocaust had nowhere else to go and were living in DP camps, it was the logical choice for a Jewish homeland...which was considered necessary because of the Holocaust itself.

But then you already know all that.

--Linda

 

[Bishadi]

Obviously, but WHAT is the point being made? What is your agenda?

the truth

Are you an anti-Semite ACCUSING us (despite our repeated denials) of plotting to start WWIII by tearing down the Dome of the Rock, or are you a Christian Zionist accusing us of moral cowardice, since the overwhelming majority of us DO NOT advocate starting WWIII by tearing down the Dome of Rock?

non of the above;

religions are all one of the same

It's got to be one or the other, because here you have three Jews (different denominations and post-denominational) all telling you the Temple Mount Faithful or whatever they call themselves DO NOT represent mainstream Judaism of any denomination! And yet you keep twisting our words to mean the opposite of what we're saying.

only reading history and what can be read currently.

as well what is occurring and recognizing how the religions are affecting the politics; both in actuality and prophetically

Why are you doing that? For whatever reason, you appear to be trying to start a full-blown jihad here, and I find that highly disturbing.

not the intent, nor recgonize the other religious declaration of jihad as a solution

in every statement made it is not to harm anyone

 

[Bishadi]

Because it's our ancestral homeland and our ties to that place run very deep.

based in a faith, not the blood line, nor birth right

remember most all the religions have roots there

When the survivors of the Holocaust had nowhere else to go and were living in DP camps, it was the logical choice for a Jewish homeland...

to board ships and beach in a soverign state?

as mentioned at the opening of the thread;

based on a religious causation

this is what the thread was opened for, to see what is actually occurring and how it is so religiously orientated and of prophecy

you 2 are rude

both points are made and all you each did was provide the answers and make yourselves upset at what you already knew was true.

 

[Raksha]

only reading history and what can be read currently.

as well what is occurring and recognizing the how the religions are affecting the politics; both in actuality and prophetically

Oh, okay. That's actually quite a relief...you had me worried for a while there! By focusing on "prophecy" and specifically prophecy in relation to the Temple Mount, you appeared to be accusing all or most of Jewry of having some kind of secret agenda to start a holy war, which would quickly escalate into WWIII.

I was actually on the point of asking you: "Are you blaming us for trying to start a holy war, or for NOT trying to start a holy war?" but just the inherent absurdity of that question prevented me from asking it. I just could not bring myself to type those words!

I know that sounds crazy, but I still cross swords regularly with a so-called "Christian Zionist" on another board (when I can stand him anyway) who does everything he can (from a safe distance) to exploit the tensions between the Israelis and the Palestinians. Maybe I should be asking HIM that question!

If you don't confine the discussion to the possibility of a Third Temple and what the Jews should or shouldn't be doing about it, I won't deny that religion has a HUGE influence on politics in Israel. In my opinion, it's a very destructive influence and does not promote the cause of peace. Of course the Palestinians aren't exactly guiltless either, but that's another discussion. Right now I'm focusing on the Jews, both in America and Israel.

I guess I should explain that I am an American Jew, and here in the US the inherent tensions (which would exist anyway) are increased by the fact that the Israeli religious right who are a bunch of loons anyway are being supported by the American (Christian) religious right, who are if anything a bigger bunch of loons. As if that weren't bad enough, they also have the support of the non-religious right in both countries, Likud in Israel and the disgusting neoconservatives in the U.S.

To make things still worse, there is also AIPAC, which stands for American Israeli Political Action Committee (I think). AIPAC is an extremely powerful, well-financed and well-connected political action committee. Many insiders consider it the most influential PAC in Washington D.C. AIPAC can literally make or break presidential candidates in this country.

What's even worse about AIPAC is that it is commonly perceived as speaking for the American Jewish community as a whole, especially with regard to Israel. This is NOT TRUE and becomes less true by the day...but they say that "money talks." AIPAC has enough money to talk louder than than the rest of the Jewish community combined, so for a long time they had the floor all to themselves. So if you believe most American Jews are AIPAC/Likud supporters, I can hardly blame you. That is the common perception, after all.

The good news is that most of us don't support Likud, and we're getting more and more fed up with AIPAC by the day. The vast majority of American Jews are still political liberals, although this is less true among the Orthodox, I'm sorry to say. At one time, they could be conservative religiously but political liberals (Jews have never had a problem with this combination--at least, at one time they didn't. But more and more often in recent years, religious Jews have come to be aligned with the militant and even imperialistic brand of Zionism that typifies the Likud. The odious Joe Lieberman, Al Gore's running mate in 2000, is "Exhibit A."

But this becomes a topic for the political board, which is probably where we should continue it.

--Linda

 

[Raksha]

based in a faith, not the blood line

It's both at the same time. We're both a religion and a distinct ethnic group, closely related to the Palestinians.

to board ships and beach in a soverign state?

At the time of the postwar settlement, Israel/Palestine was NOT a sovereign state. It was an occupied territory, occupied by the British. They are in no way related to either of the two nationalities that now lay claim to it. Unless of course you subscribe to the inherently racist "British Israelite" theory...which I DON'T!

--Linda

 

[Bishadi]

It's both at the same time. We're both a religion and a distinct ethnic group, closely related to the Palestinians.

brothers and sisters if you really want to go deep..... now we're talking

At the time of the postwar settlement, Israel/Palestine was NOT a sovereign state. It was an occupied territory, occupied by the British. They are in no way related to either of the two nationalities that now lay claim to it. Unless of course you subscribe to the inherently racist "British Israelite" theory...which I DON'T!

--Linda

had an idea you were not all bad.... nothing is better than being able to share the truth of what we know

as what you share is about dead on and kind of sad when we look at it in the sense ofm we were not even born when the damage many speak/write about began.....

 

[Bishadi]

Oh, okay. That's actually quite a relief...you had me worried for a while there! By focusing on "prophecy" and specifically prophecy in relation to the Temple Mount, you appeared to be accusing all or most of Jewry of having some kind of secret agenda to start a holy war, which would quickly escalate into WWIII.

never accuse all but still that thing is to occur and because of that conflict as sad as it is.

i can't really say much as now you have me humbled like a puppy; nothing is greater than honesty.

the rest of you post shares you have observed both sides and that is all any could ask.....

me not the political kind, as most do not realize what you mentioned; the power of money and its affect on what is understood (published)

 

[Raksha]

i can't really say much as now you have me humbled like a puppy; nothing is greater than honesty.

Thank you...I always do the best I can in that area. As soon as I realized there was a misunderstanding, a failure to communicate, I did my best to straighten it out. It just took me awhile to realize there was a misunderstanding and what its nature was. After that, it became obvious what to do about it.

Shalom,
Linda

 

[seattlegal]

i understand

Really? The rest of your post seems to indicate otherwise.

as well in genesis the earth was created in a few days; so maybe the 40 days was counted different.....

all the same; God said he would destroy the city and did.

just as some share the words of an old book and then the items comes true another day.....

If you actually read Jonah, it says the city would have been overthrown, not destroyed. I suppose that the Ninevites overthrew their evil ways by repenting from their violence, and that the city was overthrown (by God) in that respect, fulfilling the prophesy.

Nahum's prophesy came later.

and in the context, a suggestion was made that items of prophecy have not been avoided. meaning; nothing will change what was written as if we can avert a future event

they shared the story of Jonah as a defense and i shared oooops, they be wrong even if their own story says otherwise, it seems that with the nuts and bolts of observation; the city was destroyed and nothing can change that.

Actually you redirected away from Jonah (Nineveh will be overthrown) to the later prophet Nahum (Nineveh will be destroyed.) Different times, different prophecies. (oops!)

as like I just did with the creation in a few days representation; we all know existence is billions of years old (nuts and bolts reality) and the rendition of 40 days could mean just about anything, if we all want to get technical about the literary view..

Well, if we want to get all technical about it, what's the difference between being overthrown and being destroyed? Do words mean anything?

 

[Netti-Netti]

Well, if we want to get all technical about it, what's the difference between being overthrown and being destroyed? Do words mean anything?

Various translations of the Bible don't seem to be real clear on the distinction. Some translations use the term "overthrown," others go with "destroyed" to describe the same prophesized event.

Here are four parallel translations for Jonah 3:4
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
American King James Version
And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.

American Standard Version
And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.

Bible in Basic English
And Jonah first of all went a day's journey into the town, and crying out said, In forty days destruction will overtake Nineveh.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And Jonas began to enter into the city one day's journey: and he cried, and said: Yet forty days, and Ninive shall be destroyed.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
More variants here: Jonah 3:4 Then Jonah began to go through the city one day's

Dont know if the language is anything to get particularly worked up about, SG.

 

[seattlegal]

Dont know if the language is anything to get particularly worked up about, SG.

Hey, I'm learning something new. That's something I like getting worked up about.

Haphak (from Jonah 3:4)

1) to turn, overthrow, overturn

a) (Qal)

1) to overturn, overthrow

2) to turn, turn about, turn over, turn around

3) to change, transform

b) (Niphal)

1) to turn oneself, turn, turn back

2) to change oneself

3) to be perverse

4) to be turned, be turned over, be changed, be turned against

5) to be reversed

6) to be overturned, be overthrown

7) to be upturned

c) (Hithpael)

1) to transform oneself

2) to turn this way and that, turn every way

d) (Hophal) to turn on someone​

It seems that Nineveh was really turned when the people turned from their violent, evil ways, fulfilling the prophecy. (Just not in the manner that Jonah expected.)

 

[Netti-Netti]

It seems that Nineveh was really turned when the people turned from their violent, evil ways, fulfilling the prophecy. (Just not in the manner that Jonah expected.)

It seems the Ninevites renounced idolatry, which apparently was part of the Assyrian culture of violence.

Archeological digs of the city's ruins of have tuned up a variety of idols.
Based on the Book of Nahu, Nineveh was not just a hotbed for the practice of idolatry. It was in the business of exporting witchcraft. In the Book of Nahu, it is referered to as "the mistress of sorceries."

Though the city was destroyed (burned down), the historical evidence is the Ninevites themselves got away. But their way of life was taken away by the destruction of the city.

Arguably, this is a story about a possessive G-d who demanded exclusive loyaly and who used the threat of punishment to get people to give up idol worship.

Just not in the manner that Jonah expected.

I think Jonah expect the Ninevites to be punished for their past behavior.

 

[omprem]

It is not so much that we need to be taken out of exile. It is that the exile must be taken out of us.

I entirely agree with that. It is saying that Jews have become fixated on a false literal interpretation of the Torah and it is that literal interpretation that must be taken out of them. Jews must come to understand that 'Israel', 'Zion', 'the Promised Land' do not refer to physical real estate but rather to God Consciousness. When they rise above literalism, history, victimhood, and oppression of the rightful inhabitants of Palestine, and begin the internal journey that culminates in God Consciousness, then they will attain the Promised Land.

Right now they are following the observation of Tina Turner and looking for love in all the wrong places.

 

[omprem]

Because it's our ancestral homeland and our ties to that place run very deep. When the survivors of the Holocaust had nowhere else to go and were living in DP camps, it was the logical choice for a Jewish homeland...which was considered necessary because of the Holocaust itself.

But you didn't just go there, you engaged in a creeping and continuing invasion of Palestine, forcibly exiling hundreds of thousands of the Palestinians who already lived there plus killing tens of thousands of them and taking their land.

The surviving Jews of their Holocaust learned from the Nazis the lessons of brutality and genocide very well and applied those lessons in their own Holocaust of Palestinians.

 

[omprem]

I haven't read your posts carefully enough to figure out if you're a Christian Zionist or not...but I definitely smell an Agenda, and I don't like it.

--Linda

You mean as opposed to your Agenda of justifying the continuing Jewish atrocities in Palestine and the retention of land that doesn't belong to the Jews there. That makes you not only condoning war crimes but more significantly aiding and abetting them.