What do you believe about End Times?

[lunamoth]

And the topic is End Times, a fascinating subject.

Keep in mind that it was written to a persecuted Christian community, and like all apocalyptic writings its aim is to give hope. Sure, the wrathful images of Christ are 'distasteful,' just like the psalmist who longed to have his enemies babies' head dashed against rocks is 'distasteful.' You live with violence and that comes out in your writings.

But, Revelation is true to the idea of God's Kingdom coming and ending the corrupt powers and principalities of the world. The imagry is amazingly rich and most of it goes right over my head because I'm not living in those times.

I think End Times were when Jesus walked on the earth, since then, and in the future. Not future-telling, but giving hope and telling an eternal truth about the sovreignty of God and His love for his 'bride,' the Church.

 

[Faithfulservant]

In response to the original post. I do believe the bible is to be taken literally and the only time symbols come up is when used in the matter of symbolism for instance the Song of Solomon

• 2.
• Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth-- for your love is more delightful than wine.
  
  

• 3.
• Pleasing is the fragrance of your perfumes;
  
  your name is like perfume poured out.
  
  No wonder the maidens
  
  love you

The reason I hold to this standard is because I believe that the bible was inspired and God breathed... I would rather err on the side of taking it literal... than risk being wrong because Im just guessing. I believe that is adding and taking from the Word and I do not want to be guilty of that. I have experienced the "supernatural" of the Living Word and I believe the Word is a Living thing. I believe it is the known will of God. Because I am obedient to my God I want to be in His will. Thats why I believe the way I believe.

I believe we are in the end-times. I believe that everything thats supposed to happen has happened and I believe in the "rapture". The correct biblical term is in 1 thess. 4:17. harpazo translated; "caught up", or "taken away".

"Harpazo" \har-pad'-zo\ Koine Greek; "forcibly snatched away", "taken for oneself".


Gods number one promise to His faithful is that we are not appointed unto His wrath. Just like Noah and Lot werent.


this is the next event on the time clock when the time of the Gentiles comes in... that means everyone will be saved that wants to or will be saved. Somewhere in this mix there will be a nuclear attack on Israel in which God finally interferes. Israel will not be touched and the enemies will fall...

Zech 14:12 This is the plague with which the LORD will strike

all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths.

You can pretty much read this whole chapter then read Revelations plagues and see the similarity.

I believe after the rapture the anti-Christ will come into power and become the 'beloved"of the world solving the economical crisis and bringing about what the world perceives as true world peace using a treaty.. until halfway through the tribulation when he sets himself up as god to be worshipped in the High Temple in Jerusalem.

The world will then enter into the last half and the worst of the tribulation. The end will be when Jesus Christ rides in and takes back the earth which He purchased with His blood on Calvary. He will then lock up satan and his angels, which have been free to roam the earth, along with those that rejected the Lord and His salvation. There will be 1000 years in which the earth is ruled with a rod of righteousness where Jerusalem is the center of the world. Before the 1000 years is up satan will be let loose for a short period to have another go... then judgement day and he his angels and the unrighteous will be cast away into the lake of fire which is hell. Hell was created for satan and his demons not us. But in rejection of the Lord one is worshipping satan whether they know it or not.

This is why we are told in the bible to go out into the world to deliver his message of salvation so that noone will perish.

All I can say to those that dont believe this... is that if one day millions of people suddenly disappear look to heaven and take the gift. Till then feel free to mock because theres a blessing in it for us as well. lol

The bible says that during the tribulation more people will come to Salvation than ANY time in history. Thats a lot of people. What it takes them to believe is sad because most will die in that 7 years.

Yes I truly do believe this and yes scripture backs it up when take literally.

This is not to bring about fear because if you really dont want to worship and serve Him in this life... why the heck would you want to for eternity? So all you have to do it keep doing what your doing and no harm no foul.. but if this makes you think and want to try to prove my theory wrong... then do that.

 

[sonoman]

The "End Times" are real but at the same time symbolic of a change of age (or aeon). With the historical exposure of the roots of Abraham and Sarah coming from ancient northern Indian Vedic Brahmin worshiping communities forced out of the Sarasvati river valley by drought at the time Abraham was traveling from Tehran, Iran (Terah--another place name made into a human being like "Canaan" and "Cush", "grandsons" of Noah).

The End of Abraham will eventually spell doom for Zionism and destroy the religious authority of Judaism, Pauline Christianity that has attached itself to Judaism as a "branch" off the vine", and Muhammad's Islam, Baha'i, Mormonism, Christian Science, every Abrahamic religion will lose credibility when it becomes known that a pagan Canaanite god gave a pagan Hindu god masquarading as a monotheistic "Hebrew", a deed to the land of Canaan for all this pagan Hindu god's offspring. Quite a feat!

Of all the Abrahamic prophets, only Jesus and John the Baptist seem aware of anything being off about Abraham.

JtB, "Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentence, and do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones."--Lk 3:8

Jesus, "I know that you are Abraham's descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father."

They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham. But now you seek to kill Me, a Man, who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this."--Jn 8:37-40

Only Johannine/Thomasine gnostic Christianity can ride out the End of Abraham because neither one uses Abraham as spiritual/physical foundation as does Judaism and Islam.

 

[Dream]

Maybe, sonoman; but people don't always do what we expect. Theories don't always work out like we expect. The defendant will always sound guilty until their turn to speak comes, and then the prosecution will sound wrong until their turn, etc. So you say you can blow Judaism out of the water. You think Christianity and Islam will officially recognize it? Have some coffee, bud.

 

[Quahom1]

Why would he? not like such a type would bring anything of any value to the table..... unless the table was to looking for examples of cultural mass hysteria...

Concidering the current state of affairs in the world today, "mass hysteria" may not be long in coming, without the help or nudge from Christian philosophy.

Q

 

[wil]

And the topic is End Times, a fascinating subject....I think End Times were when Jesus walked on the earth, since then, and in the future. Not future-telling, but giving hope and telling an eternal truth about the sovreignty of God and His love for his 'bride,' the Church.

I agree, fascinating. I also agree that the writer thought that all this was going to occur during their lifetimes. Just as so many writers and people since then have thought it would occur during their lifetime.

What does the Book of Revelation mean to the average American? A TIME/CNN poll in 2002 found that 35% of Americans say they are paying more attention now to how the news might relate to the end of the world, and have talked about what the Bible has to say on the subject. Fully 59% say they believe the events in Revelation are going to come true. ("Apocalypse Now," Time Magazine, June 23, 2002)

Book of Revelation - What Do the Theologians Think?
... "They see End Times interest rising and falling on waves of cataclysm and calm. Masses of people became convinced the end was nigh when Rome was sacked in 410, when the Black Death wiped out one-third of the population of 14th century Europe, when the tectonic shudders of the Lisbon earthquake in 1755 caused church bells to ring as far away as England, and certainly after 1945, when for the first time human beings harnessed the power to bring about their total destruction, not an act of God, but an act of mankind." ("Apocalypse Now," Time Magazine, June 23, 2002)

The Book of Revelation is really an interpretation of earlier apocalyptic prophesies, specifically the Book of Daniel. It was most likely written within a few years after the death of Nero in 68 C.E. (see below). The author therefore is not believed to be the author of the Book of John, written three decades later. John speaks of a loving God which is in stark contrast to the vengeful God of Revelation. The author of Revelation was not fluent in Greek and is believed to have been an Aramaic speaking resident of Palestine, possibly a wandering prophet.
- from A&E's "Ancient Mysteries" on the Book of Revelation
there is more to be found here...
The Book of Revelation

 

[Quahom1]

I would only expect a heated and diverse range of posting from such an OP....

Why? The OP was simply a series of "either this or that" questions. Opinions were being sought...

v/r

Q

 

[Quahom1]

Then why does "He" allow every fundamentalist group I have ever looked at to be headed by the most corrupt bunch of blatant liars that destroy any possibility of me taking such a message seriously?

May the force be with you! I'l be back.. or whatever


tao

"He", does not. And "they", are found out pretty quickly. Besides, we are talking about a book in the biblia, not orators behind a pulpit...

 

[Dream]

I have some disagreement with the words 'Vengeful God of Revelation'.

While the imagery appears violent or grotesque it is highly symbolic. Take into account the effulgent density of symbolism within it. It is easy to get caught up in questions of 'When will this happen or that' but the time line in Revelation is not a timeline of physical events but something outside of time -- just as the Garden of Eden is outside of time. There are places to see this, including references to seven stars, churches, and lampstands. There are the numerous references to 'was, is, and will be'. Revelation is not a revelation of time and space but of the words 'Jesus Christ'. The entire book is not about physical wars (flesh and blood Eph 6:12) but is about the spiritual war waged by the saints throughout all of time -- past, present, and future -- all of those who are named by that name.

Take 1:1 the first verse which contains the book title "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" and look up the meaning of the name 'Jesus' in there, which translates literally to 'God with us'. The '7 churches' mean we are talking about the finished work of God's creation, The Church -- the church that spans all of time. Go forward past the seven letters, stars, churches, and lampstands to chapter 4. It is a reference Exodus 24 when the original elders are called up to Sinai with Moses, but it is not just a reference. It is the vision of that very same point in time, seen as the foundation and purpose of all of time! Revelation 4 revisits that time, saying that the words 'Jesus Christ' reveal the meaning of that moment. This is why Revelation says only the Lamb was able to open the 7 seals. The name 'Jesus Christ' means 'God with us, his anointed'.

This is not a difficult interpretation to make, and it is the way that Revelation works in my opinion. It is an extremely useful point of view when trying to match it up with Daniel. None of Revelation is talking about cataclysmic wars or massacres, etc.

 

[Quahom1]

I have some disagreement with the words 'Vengeful God of Revelation'.

While the imagery appears violent or grotesque it is highly symbolic. Take into account the effulgent density of symbolism within it. It is easy to get caught up in questions of 'When will this happen or that' but the time line in Revelation is not a timeline of physical events but something outside of time -- just as the Garden of Eden is outside of time. There are places to see this, including references to seven stars, churches, and lampstands. There are the numerous references to 'was, is, and will be'. Revelation is not a revelation of time and space but of the words 'Jesus Christ'. The entire book is not about physical wars (flesh and blood Eph 6:12) but is about the spiritual war waged by the saints throughout all of time -- past, present, and future -- all of those who are named by that name.

Take 1:1 the first verse which contains the book title "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" and look up the meaning of the name 'Jesus' in there, which translates literally to 'God with us'. The '7 churches' mean we are talking about the finished work of God's creation, The Church -- the church that spans all of time. Go forward past the seven letters, stars, churches, and lampstands to chapter 4. It is a reference Exodus 24 when the original elders are called up to Sinai with Moses, but it is not just a reference. It is the vision of that very same point in time, seen as the foundation and purpose of all of time! Revelation 4 revisits that time, saying that the words 'Jesus Christ' reveal the meaning of that moment. This is why Revelation says only the Lamb was able to open the 7 seals. The name 'Jesus Christ' means 'God with us, his anointed'.

This is not a difficult interpretation to make, and it is the way that Revelation works in my opinion. It is an extremely useful point of view when trying to match it up with Daniel. None of Revelation is talking about cataclysmic wars or massacres, etc.

I'm going to play "devils advocate" here for a moment.

Put yourself in John's shoes, his life, his knowledge, daily living, etc...

Now, how would you describe a "tank", a "helicopter", a "jet", a "fighter pilot", incendiary bombs, missles, talking through the air for miles away, rocket boosters with four directional thrusters underneath...?

Seriously, with no reference point to compare to except what you've lived with all your life, and you are trying to make sense of these "things" you see and hear and feel? Symbolism? Perhaps. But it could be that the symbolism is appropriate for one who can not fathom war machines they've never even dreamed of, let alone ever saw...

 

[path_of_one]

I'm with Luna (big surprise). I primarily see it as a symbolic text on the destruction of corruption and remaking of the world. I don't think prophecy is foretelling the future. I also think it was one of many revelations at the time (we've found other revelations texts by other writers) and why this particular one was chosen is a big question mark for me.

I do agree with Wil in that I think the way Revelations is used in the US churches is often driving poor, short-term decision-making and aiding in the control of folks. But it's with their consent, so what are you going to do?

 

[mee]

What do I believe? They're rough, aren't they!

the outcome is real smooth, and the understanding of the symbolism aids to our understanding and it gives us hope .





And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more.

2 I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.


3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: "Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them.
4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away." revelation 21;1-4

 

[mee]

.


this is the next event on the time clock when the time of the Gentiles comes in...

Zech 14:12 This is the plague with which the LORD will strike

all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths.

quote]
The end of the Gentile times was 1914 when Jesus recieved his kingship in the heavenly kingdom goverment, daniel 7;13-14 and when the heavenly kingdom goverment was born and established Daniel 2;44

and now we are well along into the time of the end.

and there is much opposition to that kingdom and the reigning king ,and to those who uphold it .

but as the verse you quoted informs us ,the visions and schemes that those in opposition plan and think about will be stopped.

it will just be as if their tounges had rotted in their mouths

 

[mee]

Tell me about your apocalyptic beliefs.

Armageddon a Happy Beginning​

THE word "Armageddon" has its origin in the Hebrew expression "Har–Magedon," or "Mountain of Megiddo." ​

It is found at Revelation 16:16, which states: "They gathered them together to the place that is called in Hebrew Har–Magedon." ​

Who are assembled to Armageddon, and why? ​

Just two verses earlier, at Revelation 16:14, we read: "The kings of the entire inhabited earth" are gathered together "to the war of the great day of God the Almighty." ​

Naturally, those statements raise additional intriguing questions. ​

Where do these "kings" fight? Over what issue do they battle, and with whom? ​

Will they, as many believe, use weapons of mass destruction? Will there be survivors of Armageddon? Let the Bible provide the answers. ​

Does the reference to the "Mountain of Megiddo" mean that Armageddon will be fought at a certain mountain in the Middle East? ​

No. For one thing, no such mountain really exists—at the site of ancient Megiddo, there is only a mound rising about 70 feet [20 m] above the adjacent valley plain. ​

In addition, the area around Megiddo could not begin to hold all "the kings of the earth and their armies." (Revelation 19:19) ​

However, Megiddo was the site of some of the fiercest and most decisive battles in Middle Eastern history. Thus, the name Armageddon stands as a symbol of a decisive conflict, with only one clear victor. ​

Armageddon cannot be just a conflict among earthly nations, since Revelation 16:14 states that "the kings of the entire inhabited earth" form a united front at "the war of the great day of God the Almighty." ​

In his inspired prophecy, Jeremiah stated that "those slain by Jehovah" will be scattered "from one end of the earth clear to the other end of the earth." (Jeremiah 25:33) ​

Thus, Armageddon is not a human war confined to a particular location in the Middle East. It is Jehovah’s war, and it is global. ​

Note, however, that at Revelation 16:16, Armageddon is called a "place." ​

In the Bible, "place" may signify a condition or a situation—in this case, that the entire world will be united in its opposition to Jehovah. (Revelation 12:6, 14) ​

At Armageddon all earthly nations ally themselves against "the armies that were in heaven" under the military command of the "King of kings and Lord of lords," Jesus Christ.—Revelation 19:14, 16. ​

What about the claim that Armageddon will be a holocaust involving weapons of mass destruction or a collision with a celestial body? ​

Would a loving God allow such a horrific end to humankind and their home, the earth? ​

No. He expressly states that he did not create the earth "simply for nothing" but "formed it even to be inhabited." (Isaiah 45:18; Psalm 96:10) ​

At Armageddon, Jehovah will not ruin our globe in a cataclysmic conflagration. Rather, he will "bring to ruin those ruining the earth."—Revelation 11:18.​

 

[Dream]

Put yourself in John's shoes, his life, his knowledge, daily living, etc...

Now, how would you describe a "tank", a "helicopter", a "jet", a "fighter pilot", incendiary bombs, missles, talking through the air for miles away, rocket boosters with four directional thrusters underneath...?

I don't know.

The seven letters are the first thing in the book of Revelation, and they are what it is about. Our dispute about Revelation started because some of us were power hungry. Martin Luthor and Calvin used a 'Continuous Historic' interpretation of Revelation to accuse the RC of being the 'Great Harlot', and someone since that time has devised the Futurist and Preterit points of view to take some of the heat off the RC. They are equally worthless, and have accomplished nothing for Christians except to distract us from the text. It says "Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book." It does not say "Blessed is he who interprets this book." Keeping the words is about taking them personally and doing them.

 

[mee]

It says "Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book." It does not say "Blessed is he who interprets this book." Keeping the words is about taking them personally and doing them.

A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John, 2 who bore witness to the word God gave and to the witness Jesus Christ gave, even to all the things he saw. 3 Happy is he who reads aloud and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and who observe the things written in it; for the appointed time is near.
revelation 1;1-3


something that stands out to me ,is that it says ......A revelation by Jesus christ, which God GAVE HIM .


that must mean that Jesus isnt God as some say he is.


Also it says that it is for his SLAVES to see the things that will shortly take place.


so it seems that it will be revealed to Jesus slaves .


and Jesus is feeding his faithful slaves as we can see in matthew 24;45-47

And after being fed they then go on to share that good spiritual food with others ,


so the word revelation means UNCOVERING OR REVEALING


And i believe as one of JEHOVAHS WITNESSES that the book of revelation is most certainly being revealed especially in these the LAST DAYS .

And the understanding is also very abundant especially in the time of the end DANIEL 12;4
And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of [the] end. Many will rove about, and the [true] knowledge will become abundant."


Prophecies in the book of Daniel and revelation are very closely linked and the understanding is now abundant.


and yes it has been revealed to Jesus slaves .


and mee is willing to be fed by those slaves ,and it is VERY GOOD

 

[Dream]

and Jesus is feeding his faithful slaves as we can see in matthew 24;45-47

Matthew chapter 24 also says: "But if that wicked servant says to himself, `My master is delayed,' and begins to beat his fellow servants, and eats and drinks with the drunken, the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will punish him, and put him with the hypocrites; there men will weep and gnash their teeth." (48-51)

That is why Wil and I and everyone are sometimes angry, because we have been beaten by fellow servants who've said to themselves 'My master is delayed'. They preached (and still preach) to everyone 'He's in the inner rooms!', or 'He's in the wilderness!'. They tell us 'Lo, here is the Christ!' or 'Lo, there he is!' But we were warned long ago, "as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of man." Haven't you yourself been told repeatedly that Jesus is now in his kingdom, only just out of our reach? For some reason in 1914, he supposedly established a kingdom but people just don't realize it? Mee, you have not accepted the fact that when servants say to themselves 'My master has been delayed' that they start getting abusive and beating instead of feeding the sheep. Its a hard thing, but it is a fact. Or is it you that have you said to yourself 'My master has been delayed'?

 

[sonoman]

I do wish Christians would not look at Revelation as a Christian document because it isn't. The author's theology is very much counter to Jesus' which if you read John you will know Jesus told us God did not send the Son to condemn the world but to save it. Jesus teaches Christians who follow Him to forgive sinners and yet in Revelation God and Jesus are both unforgiving. If God cannot forgive why should Jesus, why should we? Revelation continues the eye for an eye spiritual error.

 

[Faithfulservant]

its a good thing you arent an authority on the matter... Someone might actually believe you!

 

[Dondi]

I do wish Christians would not look at Revelation as a Christian document because it isn't. The author's theology is very much counter to Jesus' which if you read John you will know Jesus told us God did not send the Son to condemn the world but to save it. Jesus teaches Christians who follow Him to forgive sinners and yet in Revelation God and Jesus are both unforgiving. If God cannot forgive why should Jesus, why should we? Revelation continues the eye for an eye spiritual error.

Ironically, the events in Revelation seem to center on Israel as a nation. In fact, the 144,000 witnesses are of a supposed Jewish descent. What they will be witnessing about ought to be of interest to any serious scholar of apocalypical literature.