"Love": that beautiful language and emotion

[seattlegal]

@ Seattlegal + Nick



Seattlegal

I wouldn't say that love deactivates judgment, but rather invokes mercy and forgiveness.

I hope you are wrong, because I desperately want it to deactivate my judgment. It is the "quietness of mind" which I want out of love. I don't know.... but as highly regarded as "thought" and intellect seem to be by everyone, I would pick "feeling" over it any day... That moment of unbroken silence, in the midst of the noises of ecstasy.... from what I remember, no part of my brain which handled "judgment" did I want to disturb that peace. It couldn't even if it tried. But such moments never last... not here anyway...

You can get that from soma. ("A gram is better than a damn." ~Brave New World) Love is not a drug...

 

[Nick_A]

@ Seattlegal + Nick



Seattlegal


I hope you are wrong, because I desperately want it to deactivate my judgment. It is the "quietness of mind" which I want out of love. I don't know.... but as highly regarded as "thought" and intellect seem to be by everyone, I would pick "feeling" over it any day... That moment of unbroken silence, in the midst of the noises of ecstasy.... from what I remember, no part of my brain which handled "judgment" did I want to disturb that peace. It couldn't even if it tried. But such moments never last... not here anyway...


Nick A

Self love... that most cardinal of all the false idols. Which may be the source of all falsities present in the human condition... The tragedy of all tragedies, is it not? The one sentiment which can save the human spirit, ends up being the most dangerous and deceptive of them all!

The meaning of self love is different in Christianity and Christendom. For example:

Mark 12:

28One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[f] 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[g]There is no commandment greater than these."

However, I agree that self love is a dangerous and decptive false idol. Does Jesus say we must love others as we do this this false idol? Does the Quran clarify the deeper meaning Jesus refers to?

 

[Netti-Netti]

I just read this article before logging on, and how relevant it is to this first post I read here: "What is surprising is the degree to which hatred is associated with logic and planning."

The part in quotes was something Annalee Newitz said in response to Semir Zeki and John Paul Romaya's conclusion:

What seems not to be in doubt is that this cortical zone involves the premotor cortex, a zone that has been implicated in the preparation of motor planning and its execution. We hypothesize that the sight of a hated person mobilizes the motor system for the possibility of attack or defense. In addition, the involvement of the frontal pole consider to be critical in predicting the action of others, arguably an important feature when confronted by a hated person.

​

I'd say Annalee Newitz's summary is imprecise and misleading. This is how I see it: Hostility (and perhaps negative emotions/aversions in general) lead to reduced impulse control via weakened volitional functions. Autopilot kicks in. The affect-motivation connection is very immediate; it tends not to be modulated by long-term planning considerations or enduring values.

In short, being concerned with immediate and fairly simple fight/flight options, hostilility in effect impairs long-term planning. The impulsive behavior in which hostilility is expressed would seem to signify a failure of cognitive mediation.

Basically, a hostile person has become disorganized and lost control. They are at the mercy of their emotional state. So contrary to what Annalee Newitz concluded, hatred may actually be associated with impaired judgment in the sense that logic and planning are reduced to a kind of tunnel vision immediacy of concern.

Zeki and Romaya went on:

. . it is more likely that in the context of hate the hater may want to exercise judgment in calculating moves to harm, injure or otherwise extract revenge.
​

I'd agree with that part, which essentially means a hostile state of mind might enhance information processing functions in a situation that calls for aggression and quick action. But there is no reason to expect any such enhancement for other kinds of problem-solving situations. I would say most problem-solving situations do not benefit from what is essentially a disorganized/out-of-control state.

 

[seattlegal]

Might want to compare to this thread: http://www.interfaith.org/forum/anger-9019.html

 

[dailogue is the best]

I believe that we are called to live as if the Kingdom of God were already here - and yet it is said that the Kingdom of God is within you. Certainly the world we live on is finite, but it seems to defy complete description - there is no sign that science will ever be complete (despite the claims of some that we will soon know the mind of God). So what is the cause of the imperfection which we assign to the world of our perception? Perhaps just a childish insistance that everything should go our way. But it is surely easier to re-orient our world view than to forcibly change the minds of nearly 7 billion other souls.

I believe Islam has a lot to offer our shared civilization on the subject of letting go and "letting God". God carries out his will by the faithful actions of his believers. Because I studied physics I sometimes think of the human world as a kind of spiritual superfluid - a tiny point of condensation and the whole world suddenly changes phase. I believe this is the true aim of Christ's teaching - to get us to behave in such away that the evil of the world collapses and the great lie vanishes. That lie holds that good can never overcome but though it may be slower and steadier, love wins always because it knows the value of sacrifice. Jesus knew this whatever you believe about the crucifixion. The important thing for me is that the Christ-spirit that he promised us all, that is accessible to all will change the world into an outward paradise as well as an inward one which it always was by being spoken into existence by the Word that was with God in the beginning.

And yet have you never looked up at the clouds passing by or the stars shining at night. Doesn't it fill your soul with majesty and awe, a wholeness that makes our human struggle to determine who shall be greatest seem futile and misguided.

No, in the words of Mary Dyer, the Quaker martyr hanged by order of the Massachusetts legislature, "Yea, I have been in Paradise these several days...".

So abandon fear of the death of ego, open your soul to the light of the Christ spirit, and uphold with gentle hands the fragilities of your neighbours and yourself for all may be purified before God.

peace and blessings,


qj

Nice post, qj. How can one turn blind eyes to the bewitching landscapes and geography around us?!!! The world is heaven and paradse. MashAllah. Glory is to God alone. I cant fail to see that, qj. But the question is what about people: do they leave all in peace? can some enjoy the wonderful nature while they are deprived from food, health and comfort?!

The prophet Abraham is described in the Quran as a nation. God says: "Abraham was a nation, obedient to Allah, of pure faith and was not among the idolaters,(16:120).
This means that Abraham was thinking of others, rather than himself alone.
He was a man of love to spread. That's what we all should be.

 

[c0de]

@ Seattlegal + Nick + Netti



Seattlegal

Love is not a drug...

... maybe. what do I know anyway...




Nick

BTW, thanks for that youtube video of the paintings... WoW...

Does Jesus say we must love others as we do this this false idol? Does the Quran clarify the deeper meaning Jesus refers to?

There are many verses relating to love, but the one I feel is most important is this:

"And yet there are some people,
who replace God with rivals,
loving them as God is loved.
But the believers love God more intensely" (2:165)



Netti

I'd agree with that part, which essentially means a hostile state of mind might enhance information processing functions in a situation that calls for aggression and quick action. But there is no reason to expect any such enhancement for other kinds of problem-solving situations. I would say most problem-solving situations do not benefit from what is essentially a disorganized/out-of-control state.

"Anger blunts the blade"... so said the samurai.
I think maybe we are confusing the term hate with anger.
however I do not know if Dialogue would appreciate it
if we started talking about hate/anger on her thread
about love.

 

[Netti-Netti]

I do not know if Dialogue would appreciate it
if we started talking about hate/anger on her thread
about love.

The Zeki and Romaya study you cited was concerned with hatred toward individuals. The findings indicated that the hate emotional configuration "involves regions of the putamen and the insula that are almost identical to the ones activated by passionate, romantic, love." What if it's the same pattern of activation is associated with love of G-d?

Care to volunteer as a subject for a quick-and-dirty imaging study?

Afterthought: based on Zeki and Romaya finding, it's quite possible that for some people being in hate is the closest they get to being love. This would explain why they hold on to it.

 

[c0de]

Afterthought: based on Zeki and Romaya finding, it's quite possible that for some people being in hate is the closest they get to being love. This would explain why they hold on to it.

That gives a whole new meaning to the phrase: "those who are the hardest to love, are the ones that need it the most."

Love and Anger are both passionate states, but I do not know if hate qualifies as a passionate state. You can hate someone without necessarily being angry at them. You can also be angry at someone without hating them. So I think we are definitely confusing the terms a little.

 

[Netti-Netti]

Peace, Netti

Peace, dailogue .

What you said about the sufis experience of love and its motives might be true. But, for me, the ultimate aim of love for sufis or for any devout believer is to get closer and closer to G-d, and preserving this love by continuous monitoring of one's ego.

We find G-d in the human's spiritual heart - but not just one's own. Compassion is another way. How does this work? Compassion is connecting with the other person's being. That way, one can discover G-d attributes as reflected/embodied in that person.

More specificaly, in Muzaffer Ozak's examples, "G-d's Mercy is expressed through the thoughts and actions of one person, G-d's Compassion through another, G-d's Generosity through another. " And so on. We learn to love G-d based on these various revealed attributes. At the same time, we recognize our own potential to reflect these traits and become a channel for their expression.

Unity with G-d is not just a subjective state. It has an objective aspect in the form of service: "the teaching of Sufism is to transform everyday life into a religion so that every action may bear some spiritual fruit." ~ Hazrat Inayat Khan

The challenge to find meaningful work is a persistent challenge. Each person has a chance to work with the Divine Attributes and discover the unique gift by which they can accomplish the transmission of blessing.

 

[dailogue is the best]

Peace, dailogue .

peace to you and yours, Netti

We find G-d in the human's spiritual heart - but not just one's own. Compassion is another way. How does this work? Compassion is connecting with the other person's being. That way, one can discover G-d attributes as reflected/embodied in that person.

MashAllah, Netti. Your words are wonderful.

I do believe that by connecting to others, be it persons, animals or nature, one can discover God's attributes more.

More specificaly, in Muzaffer Ozak's examples, "G-d's Mercy is expressed through the thoughts and actions of one person, G-d's Compassion through another, G-d's Generosity through another. " And so on. We learn to love G-d based on these various revealed attributes. At the same time, we recognize our own potential to reflect these traits and become a channel for their expression.

Unity with G-d is not just a subjective state. It has an objective aspect in the form of service: "the teaching of Sufism is to transform everyday life into a religion so that every action may bear some spiritual fruit." ~ Hazrat Inayat Khan

The challenge to find meaningful work is a persistent challenge. Each person has a chance to work with the Divine Attributes and discover the unique gift by which they can accomplish the transmission of blessing.

Netti, special thanks for your post. It is what I am looking for: how to establish connection with God. I know it is a trip of lasting challenge as you said. Sufis said that in order to establish good connection with God, you have to purify His house first. God cannot enter your heart while it is still absorbed in/ preocuppied with the glitters of this world life. Heart has to be God's house alone.

" Takhliya", getting rid in Arabic, is concerned with getting rid from any negative feelings and impulses from heart. The second operation is called "tahliya", filling in with "sweet" things. This operation is concerned with filling heart with positive attributes and characteristics. And by the way, the two operations are of utomst difficulty, and they are lasting as breath in one's soul (and that's one of my preoccupation)

In Islam, God has 99 beautiful attributes. To establish a good connection with God, one has to adopt those attributes (according to one of the Prophet Muhammed's saying).

 

[dailogue is the best]

I wouldn't say that love deactivates judgment, but rather invokes mercy and forgiveness.

Peace, seattlegal,

I agree with you to some degree. It is love that enables some to bear the faults of their beloved. However, sometimes, I see that love can stand as a barrier towards one's happiness. When is that? Simply, when we love the wrong person. What do you think, seattlegal?

 

[dailogue is the best]

Very true. But perhaps the real source of hatred is self love which has deactivated judgment. Why hate the scapegoat? Hitler understood the logic of directed hate in support of patriotic love. The Jews became the scapegoat. But the cause is the loss of the experience of self love and someone must take the blame.

A terrorist's bombings are simply the lawful degeneration of the love of truth natural for the corrupted heart.

Peace to you, Nick

I may agree with you that the real source of hatred is self love. Some people may get wronged by others, but they may not hate them because they are not very attached to their egos. Those who hold a high opinion of themselves are more liable to be haters to everyone that may show them any sign of disrespect, either in intention or without any intention.

One who is in good connection with God does only what pleases God. He/ she isnt a servant of his/her ego. Being wronged by others, they may forgive them, because that what pleases God.

Ali Ibn Abi Talib, the prophet Muhamed's cousin, was in a battle against the pagans. One pagan was about to kill Ali, but Ali managed to defeat him and he was about to kill him when the pagan suddenly spit on the face of Ali. At that moment, Ali left the pagan to his own and didnt kill him. Ali's friends asked him why he did so. Ali replied: " I feared that I would kill him out of revenge to myself, while I have to do anything for God's pleasure"....

 

[dailogue is the best]

"Anger blunts the blade"... so said the samurai.
I think maybe we are confusing the term hate with anger.
however I do not know if Dialogue would appreciate it
if we started talking about hate/anger on her thread
about love.

Peace, c0de,

Thanks a lot for your replies. Thanks for giving me a hand. Sometimes, I am really busy with work which keeps from joining in to enjoy discussing with all of you.

I think that discussiing anger/hate won't get us away from the main topic of the thread. Anger/hatred are emotions which I think arent sperated from love. I believe that there is a thin hair between love and hatred. People who hate may turn to those who extremely love in a glimpse of eye. I extremely like the following Quranic verses:

[41:34] Not equal is the good response and the bad response. You shall resort to the nicest possible response. Thus, the one who used to be your enemy, may become your best friend.

[41:35] None can attain this except those who steadfastly persevere. None can attain this except those who are extremely fortunate.

 

[dailogue is the best]

Any more insights about God's love, you are very welcome, brothers and sisters.

I want to share with you some of the thoughts that I heard from TV programme one day. The guest, and he was a psychologist, was talking about love. That's why the programme attracted me ....

Anyway, the guest was talking about the necessity of keeping a reasonable distance between those we love and our heart. The guest presented very interesting arguments. He gave a very good comparison. He said that one cant read a paper very well if that paper is very close to our eyes. Therefore, in order that the paper can be readable, there must be a reasonable distance between the paper and eyes.

Depending on this comparison, the guest said that any love should be kept in considerable distance from heart. Thus, a person in love can clearly see the beloved's characteristics very plainly. Sometimes, love can destroy some people. This kind of love is like the close paper to eyes. It didn’t take the right position.

The guest suggested what he called “the focal dimension of love”. He said that any love should have a focal dimension that protects one from being involved in a harmful love. A true, healthy love must lead one towards construction and development. Any love which leads to destruction and deterioration isn’t healthy love. It is love of no focal dimension.

The guest also suggested that the only true love that should be very close and stick to our hearts is that of God because it is the only love that we can never be get harmed of ,and because it is the only love that we prosper, develop, and achieve happiness with.

 

[c0de]

@ Dialogue


Know that God comes between a man and his heart. (8:24)

Anyway, the guest was talking about the necessity of keeping a reasonable distance between those we love and our heart. The guest presented very interesting arguments. He gave a very good comparison. He said that one cant read a paper very well if that paper is very close to our eyes. Therefore, in order that the paper can be readable, there must be a reasonable distance between the paper and eyes.

Honestly, I think that is something beyond the power of the individual. No matter how much self control you think you have, it is never enough unless God strengthens your heart at that crucial moment of choice... Even Joseph PBUH said that he would not be able to withstand temptation much longer if God did not help him withstand the attraction towards evil... because "man's self is wont to command evil"...

 

[seattlegal]

Peace, seattlegal,

I agree with you to some degree. It is love that enables some to bear the faults of their beloved. However, sometimes, I see that love can stand as a barrier towards one's happiness. When is that? Simply, when we love the wrong person. What do you think, seattlegal?

Loving the wrong thing can certainly lead to suffering and delusion. Love is not necessarily limited towards people, but one can also love righteousness or one could love unrighteousness. One can love the truth, which will lead towards a clear mind, or one can love untruth, which will lead towards delusion. (Notice how the word believe is related to the word beloved? Notice how the word make-believe is related to pretense?)

Your example of needing to keep a loved once a safe distance from your heart in order to see the situation clearly is related to the "love of truth," whereas the non-clarity of vision you wrote about is related to "make-believe."

If love of untruth leads towards delusion, can one really know and understand love if one doesn't also love truth?

 

[quakeyjase]

Nice post, qj. How can one turn blind eyes to the bewitching landscapes and geography around us?!!! The world is heaven and paradse. MashAllah. Glory is to God alone. I cant fail to see that, qj. But the question is what about people: do they leave all in peace? can some enjoy the wonderful nature while they are deprived from food, health and comfort?!

It's a good question. Why do we seem to make ourselves and each other so unhappy? I believe Jesus' message is about re-orienting ourselves to the truth - yes there are problems but if we do a 180° we might find we had the solutions to our problems all along by simply letting go of our fear.

I have a friend who helps a village in Uganda where they have a road preventing them from getting to their well. Eight people have been killed collecting water! My point is sometimes the world has to get a bit ridiculous, before it's stupidity is apparent. I know this is unbearable for some and my best answer to that is to sacrifice whatever you can to make it less unbearable.

If we join hands and forget our meaningless quest for who is greatest (He was!), we may find the tools to reforge the world fall into our hands.

This isn't a complete answer, but who said we need to achieve the Kingdom of God in a single gigantic step? Baby steps, my friends, baby steps!

peace and blessings,


qj

 

[dailogue is the best]

@ Dialogue


Know that God comes between a man and his heart. (8:24)

Honestly, I think that is something beyond the power of the individual. No matter how much self control you think you have, it is never enough unless God strengthens your heart at that crucial moment of choice... Even Joseph PBUH said that he would not be able to withstand temptation much longer if God did not help him withstand the attraction towards evil... because "man's self is wont to command evil"...

Yes, you are right, c0de. WE are all weak without God's help. But, what I was talking about isnt controlling the emotions, which arent controllable anyway or hard to be, but I was talking about the reaction to those emotions. The reactions are in our hands, and if we dont keep stick to God as you said, we will be lost in our egos whims. Again, God's love and comittment to this love is the key to safety.

 

[dailogue is the best]

Loving the wrong thing can certainly lead to suffering and delusion. Love is not necessarily limited towards people, but one can also love righteousness or one could love unrighteousness. One can love the truth, which will lead towards a clear mind, or one can love untruth, which will lead towards delusion. (Notice how the word believe is related to the word beloved? Notice how the word make-believe is related to pretense?)

Your example of needing to keep a loved once a safe distance from your heart in order to see the situation clearly is related to the "love of truth," whereas the non-clarity of vision you wrote about is related to "make-believe."

If love of untruth leads towards delusion, can one really know and understand love if one doesn't also love truth?

Nice post, seattlegal,

And is there any truth in the world, but God?!!!!

 

[dailogue is the best]

It's a good question. Why do we seem to make ourselves and each other so unhappy? I believe Jesus' message is about re-orienting ourselves to the truth - yes there are problems but if we do a 180° we might find we had the solutions to our problems all along by simply letting go of our fear.

I have a friend who helps a village in Uganda where they have a road preventing them from getting to their well. Eight people have been killed collecting water! My point is sometimes the world has to get a bit ridiculous, before it's stupidity is apparent. I know this is unbearable for some and my best answer to that is to sacrifice whatever you can to make it less unbearable.

If we join hands and forget our meaningless quest for who is greatest (He was!), we may find the tools to reforge the world fall into our hands.

This isn't a complete answer, but who said we need to achieve the Kingdom of God in a single gigantic step? Baby steps, my friends, baby steps!

peace and blessings,


qj

wonderful post, qj

The prophet Muhamed peace be upon him said: "“If any of you have a date sapling on the doomsday he should plant it -if possible ", which reflects that one should keep doing good even to his/her latest time.....