Our Legal System Sucks

greymare

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Gday Folks, I just want to bring to your attention an incident happening here (my home town) recently. And I would like to here your views on it and how your legal system would handle it.

A few months ago...
A body piecing shop opened up in town. Now, these owners had nothing to do with tattoos or bikers etc. Just a body piercing shop and also sold jewellery. they received menacing phone calls and were told to close down, they didnt. The shop and others around it were burned down.

A man was charged with the arson attack as well as other charges eg. Rape, common assault, grievous bodily harm, drink spiking, possessing explosives, possessing and supplying drugs, assault occasioning bodily harm, stalking,and extorion.

He was granted bail.

After being released on bail, the same day, he was charged with assault occasioning bodily harm, supplying drugs and being disorderly at a licensed premises.

AGAIN GRANTED BAIL.
:confused:
oh and he is a "leader" of a biker gang.

I know there are always going to be people like him, but my issue is with my countrys legal system. How can someone like this be granted bail?? Its absurd:eek::confused:

Tell me what you think?
Love the Grey
 
Tell me what you think?
Love the
you better hope your legal system sucks, cause if it didn't you folks would fall off the planet.

btw we do the same thing here on a daily basis...

(cause if our legal system didn't suck the size of our American ego would cause us to float off the planet!)
 
LOL, thanks for that Wil.
i just thought that a condition of bail would automatically be that "they" werent a threat to society.

stupid, niave old me. lol
 
I would like to try temporarily empowering juries more, because they can nullify laws when convicting or refusing to convict. Maybe have juries run some civil courts instead of judges. I don't fully understand all of the history of our systems, but the process is getting gummed up by so much case history and needs a defrag. We need a defrag. The way things are now it is difficult and expensive to select juries, but that can be remedied. The only thing is, I don't know how to make it work so that minorities are protected. I know that judges are too limited by precedents and law is far too complex for citizens. Its embarrassing and dangerous when evildoers get rewarded.
 
LOL, thanks for that Wil.
i just thought that a condition of bail would automatically be that "they" werent a threat to society.

stupid, niave old me. lol

Same here, but it happens in the UK, too.
 
It is blood boiling that these really rotten apples are allowed to get away with their badness time and time again. It seems to me many many judges are completely divorced from rationality.
 
Yeah, well, I have made it public knowledge taht I am upset with it all, (local paper), so if something happens(to me), you will know why.
LOL
He wil probably get bail again. LOL.
 
Yeah, sometimes the justice system doesn't work. Warning: this article isn't to read within three hours of eating or drinking anything.

Bronx teen confesses to roasting kitten

The female in this article, along with her boyfriend, previously mugged a woman and stole her dog (don't know what happened to the pooch.)

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine
 
I don't think a thread entitled "Our Legal System Sucks" qualifies exactly for the News board ;-)
 
NEWSFLASH

Reports coming in from Reuters confirm that Bob X is a pedant.
 
In the UK, we arrest people for crimes like... evasion of TV license payments...being a street vendor without a valid permit.... being seventy years old and roller blading on the High Street... we have several divisions of justice- on the spot fines issued by civil servants and police, we have magistrates courts for offenses considered low-cost/less serious or deemed civil matters, we have children and families courts, and we have crown courts, with juries, for more serious offences...

murder, a serious crime, has a recommended tariff of fifteen years, yet most murderers are awarded 5-7 years, usually serving four.

It isn't murderers clogging up the jail cells though; 75% of all ppl in prison in the UK are sentenced after commiting acquisitive crimes to fund their drug habits...

In the UK, rather than build more jails, which we need, we are creating new, innovative ways to keep ppl out of jail. On the spot fines for drug possession and shoplifting. Electronic tagging of offenders. None of these things prevent crimes reoccuring. Unfortunately, the criminals do not live in Parliament Square next door to Gordon Brown. And so they end up back on the streets to do the same thing again- 1 in 2 offenders released from jail reoffend within two years. Rehabilitation? It's not working, is it?

Most criminals, even petty, immature ones, are aware that currently, sentences are on average a third less than what they say in law they should be... where's the deterrent?

Judges, too, are often out of touch. Several high profile cases in UK history have revealed judges to condone wife beating "if she nags", to be overly lenient on offenders who come from a higher social bracket even if their crimes are abominable, et cetera, and a jury of peers, although admirable in theory, is often reduced to the power of one or two men with loud voices and firm opinions.

My way? If I ruled the world... well...

lie detector tests should be allowed into court. We test everyone. If that and circumstantial evidence is all we have then, on the safe side, let's haul you in.

Druggies should have seperate jails, and focus on rehab and detox.

Murderers such as serial killers, child killers, violent predatory killers, should receive the death penalty. I don't care if they're "mentally ill". It isn't an excuse. It is cruel, but we should have no sympathy. You go into Asda and hack off the heads from three small children and a man reading soap instructions? Sorry. If you were a dog or a horse we'd be cruel not to put you down.

Offenders who commit crimes against vulnerable people also should receive harsher sentences. In my town a little old lady of 83 years old had her face bashed in by a mugger. He got three years. It's not enough.

Jumping on a young deer or swan or setting fire to a kitten? Killing and maiming small animals? Sorry, you're a psychopath. We should lock you away until you're too old to hurt anyone. You hurt children, old people, beat your wife and rape your daughters? Sorry. Society isn't safe with you in it.

Instead, what do we have? A system where justice isn't really served, where punishments are not harsh enough, were people are not protected from real criminals because the police are too busy protecting the establishment instead of the people. Arresting people at the train station because they haven't bought a ticket? Nicking kids because they smoke waccy baccy? Not when there's real crimes going on you don't.

Part of the problem though, is not the fault of the justice system, and falls firmly at the feet of the peasants who have no will, no sense of self control and no sense of propriety. Ill educated, unaware of what consitutes morality, egotistical, society cannot function unless the people who participate in it agree on some basic rules. They don't.
 
It isn't the various legal systems that are a mess, but rather the People we allow to occupy those legal positions of office...
 
I am not sure, but i have tried to enquire, but it seems our judges are appointed by the government, bar association, etc and are generally baristers. Basically, we have no idea who they are unles we have to appear before them. (and then we still dont know).
 
LOL, thanks for that Wil.
i just thought that a condition of bail would automatically be that "they" werent a threat to society.

stupid, niave old me. lol

Greetings, greymare.

From what I have been given to understand the more important consideration is that the accused citizen will return to the court to face the charges and specification levied against them. One may be released on one's on recognizance, post a surety bond, or be incarcerated while awaiting trial. A person who is considered as a probable "flight" risk is incarcerated.
 
LOL, i would have thought that the possibility of reoffending would be also a factor. Considering he was on bail and then re arrested, to me is the quandary. LOL.
But then again, Im not the judge, but i sure would like to be, inthis situation. lol
 
My way? If I ruled the world... well...

Brilliant post Francis, you'll get my vote for ruling the world.

When you are ruling the world can we lock the violent loonies up again instead of this fluffy care in the community rubbish. ;)
 
By the "Authority" vested in me by Snoopy
I hereby make some noise.:p

OLD NEWS
The prevailing legal presumption concerning the citizenry knowing the law is based upon the concept of the parent or guardian teaching the law to their children/wards.

That the above operating presumption is flawed, for the argument has an inherent circular logical function <1>, appears to have been deliberately overlooked.

When examining those societies where public education is mandated by law then the responsibility would seem to have been transferred from the parent/guardian to the Public Educational Institutions. It is most interesting to find that knowledge of the law is not a fundamental required course within the curriculum of that mandated, by law, public educational system here in the USA.

The US Government's own assessment reports, regarding the overall decline in public educational system <2>, appears to matter little, if at all, to the legal professions in general or to the courts in particular.

The Prosecuting Attorneys, Judges, and Politicians appear most happy with the system as it stands for an uninformed (i.e. uneducated) populace is much easier to use ill and to exercise control over.

When I write of "knowledge of the Law" I do not allude to 'chapter and verse' memorization of a fixed quantity <3> - no, I refer to the underlying foundation concepts of the law itself and specifically as it pertains to the predominately British-derived <4> American legal system.

There is a little known group here in the US that is pressing for a "Fully Informed Jury" concept. Prosecutors and Judges are not enamored with this group for reasons that may become obvious.

I would like to try temporarily empowering juries more, because they can nullify laws when convicting or refusing to convict.

This power of juries, as outlined above, is a concept of English Common Law and is one of the many aspects of law that is not taught here in the USA. This references cases at common law, as found in our Constitution. So in reality the jury has that power of law but are kept ignorant of it or are studiously prevented from exercising that power by the exacting of an oath beforehand.

I don't fully understand all of the history of our systems, but the process is getting gummed up by so much case history and needs a defrag. We need a defrag.

The first phrase is most telling and when coupled with that which is not taught creates a system that, to use the vernacular, appears to be in need of a de- fragmentation but which is in dire need of the activation of the appropriate sub routines and functions that may be collectively classed as "Knowledge of the Law." So while "the system" may appear outwardly as being cluttered it is in reality a lack; the program runs haltingly from the lack of necessary accessible functions.

It isn't the various legal systems that are a mess, but rather the People we allow to occupy those legal positions of office...

It is in the general ignorance of the law and of their responsibilities by the constituency that the citizenry re-elects those who occupy the position for a continued term of abuses.

The only thing is, I don't know how to make it work so that minorities are protected. I know that judges are too limited by precedents and law is far too complex for citizens.

The underlying concept of reason that Anglo-American law is supposedly to adhere to would indicate that there need be little or no concern of the persecution of minorities for the application of the Reasonable Man Theorums is inclusive rather than exclusionary with few exceptions; the general classes of exclusions being directed at children and the mentally incompetent.

While the legal wording, and its attendant jargon-specific <5> definitions, may appear to be difficult at first and even second glance; the law, is in itself, not as complex as most would lead one to believe. Yet it is in that false belief of the great difficulty in understanding the law that power is wielded over others.

Its embarrassing and dangerous when evildoers get rewarded.

Is it not the greater embarrassment when an innocent man is hung? What then does one say to his unlawful widow and children?

Oops, my bad???


Recommended Reading.
A good staring place would be readings from John Locke's "Treatise on Civil Government" and a "Letter on Toleration". It is most fortunate that these two works can be found bundled together under one cover and are relatively inexpensive. The use of the language may be a bit daunting and difficult to follow but reading these works is well worth the effort expended.

NOTES:
1 - "the inherent circular logical function" The argument falls apart should the parent/guardian forget to teach one aspect or the other to the child and that child, upon having himself become an adult and parent/guardian, forgetting some 'minor' aspect in the teaching of the next generation and so on.

2 - A US governmental report released in the late 1980's indicated a 3 years loss in the depth and breath of education as compared to the mid to late 1940's. The situation has become progressively worse.

3 - "fixed quantity" 'As it is written so shall it be done'. But the law is known to be changed on precedent or by additional legislation.

4 - The USA was "born" in the twin ages of Enlightenment and Reason. The concept that the law should adhere to a path dictated by reason was a concept common in both English Common Law and American Philosophy. Most of the 13 proposed amendments to the US Constitution were initially suggested during the time of Cromwell.

5 - "jargon specific" This refers to a common shorthand as found in many fields of endevour. To those "in the know" with in a certain field the use of such shortcuts, or highly specific narrow focus definitions, were developed to facilitate more rapid conceptual communication with others in that same field.

6 - Only remember there is no six!!!
 
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