The Garden of Eden

shawn said:
Fair enough m8.
I think that some people just take things far too literally and they then discount the other aspects as they don't fit into their model of understanding.
Having spent many hours talking with relatives and others concerning christian matters I find this the norm (most people are literalists )
Yet Jesus himself said that if you don't understand parables you won't comprehend what he was getting at (my paraphrase).
Paul also said (concerning Abraham) that the work was allegory.
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Maybe parables are the way to tell a historical, metaphorical, and life lesson truth, in that it causes people to wonder and imagine as a child, without the disbelief that life so often causes to become a stumbling block. For the more learned, Jesus often gave the story behind the "parable" he told to the masses...and you know what, the story didn't change, nor the facts, just the imagery...;)

Case in point, parable of the seeds - seeds on a path became the words of redemption and salvation...the promise of a better life. Some hear it and forget it, some start to adhere to it, but are distracted by "reality", some find deep meaning in it and it grows and deepens in their lives, and the seeds spread from them to others they affect in life...

where is the falseness in that? Where is the non historical fact? Where is the mythology? None, none, and none.

Is it historically true? Ask any farmer for that answer...happens all the time.

Is it mythological? see question #1

Is it false? see question #1

The issue is the packaging, so that we can wrap our minds around what happened between us and this "Creator".

I think, if we knew the truth...it would kill us (within us, by our own will and devestation of knowing we sabotaged our own relationship with something so wonderful).
 
Some things are only possible to tell by way of allegory.
At least until the hearer has acquired the experience necessary to empathize and relate.
I think, if we knew the truth...it would kill us
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Well, better to have the truth than be stuck in falsehood.
I think that we wouldn't like to still believe that the world was flat and all that, at least I wouldn't.
And the truth wouldn't kill you, it would liberate you.
 
shawn said:
Some things are only possible to tell by way of allegory.
At least until the hearer has acquired the experience necessary to empathize and relate.

Well, better to have the truth than be stuck in falsehood.
I think that we wouldn't like to still believe that the world was flat and all that, at least I wouldn't.
And the truth wouldn't kill you, it would liberate you.
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Are you married? You really want to know your spouse's deepest secrets? Or your kids'? Then how are you going to handle God's?
 
Married? Yes, for almost 20 yrs.
I don't believe in secrets.
I believe in transparency and openness.

Look at the damage a world full of secrecy is causing...in politics....in finance....etc.

Beside's the question is really one of humanities blindness to spiritual things.
It is not like God is keeping secrets from us.
We are all just handicapped and dysfunctional.
Yes...all of us.
 
shawn said:
Married? Yes, for almost 20 yrs.
I don't believe in secrets.
I believe in transparency and openness.

Look at the damage a world full of secrecy is causing...in politics....in finance....etc.

Beside's the question is really one of humanities blindness to spiritual things.
It is not like God is keeping secrets from us.
We are all just handicapped and dysfunctional.
Yes...all of us.
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Do you tell your children certain things? Or do you hold back because they are too young to understand? Be honest. Speaking of honest transparancy, that is for other adults and yourself, not kids and adults, when kids don't have full faculties. That would just not be fair to the kids...

And when it comes to God, we are just kids...
 
I think that rather than being about secrets and whether or not we can handle the truth, it is about learning and growing closer to the truth through knowledge wisdom and feeling. In my opinion, the truth is already here. It's just that all of us are here to learn the truth, and that can take a while.

And as far as kids and secrets, that's just the beliefs of your culture showing through. All over the world kids are taught about things that some adults can't even handle and are fine with it. It just depends on the person. There can't really be a blanket rule that applies at certain ages cause it doesn't work that way.

It's just that a lot of western culture treats kids as handicapped or mentally invalid. Kids can handle a lot. And kids understand more than you would think even if you don't tell them. I'm not commenting on you personally Q1 just western culture in general takes a very strange approach to children from my perspective.

But strange is relative. As is right. As is truth.

Even God is relative if you look at world viewpoints.

It's easy to get confused in this world. I guess ya just have to try to see the whole, and take what ya can from that. That's the only way to even come close to the truth IMHO.
 
I don't think the best MO is keeping secrets from children. They're a lot better at ferreting out secrets than we like to think, except that when we're secretive, they think worse things than what is actually the case.

There are, however, appropriate and inappropriate ways to talk to kids at various developmental stages about the hard stuff. But just because they may be too young to understand how someone would say it to an adult, doesn't mean they're too young to understand the actual content, if it is delivered appropriately.

I figure God's kind of like that. No need for secrets, but rather an unfolding appropriate to our development, which varies person by person.
 
path_of_one said:
I don't think the best MO is keeping secrets from children. They're a lot better at ferreting out secrets than we like to think, except that when we're secretive, they think worse things than what is actually the case.

There are, however, appropriate and inappropriate ways to talk to kids at various developmental stages about the hard stuff. But just because they may be too young to understand how someone would say it to an adult, doesn't mean they're too young to understand the actual content, if it is delivered appropriately.

I figure God's kind of like that. No need for secrets, but rather an unfolding appropriate to our development, which varies person by person.
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One is not going to try and teach a child how to interpret the blue prints to a nuclear power plant. Got to teach them to read dick and jane first. That was my point with God and man.
 
Quahom1 said:
If you were there, then you could unequivicably state that...but you nor me nor anyone else was there, so we can't determine how much is mythos, or parable, or absolute historical fact.

Now before you state that it is too fantastic to be historically true...consider trying to tell people from the 17th century exactly how Neil Armstrong, Buzz Aldrin, and Michael Collins left earth on a pillar of fire, circled a heavenly body, landed on it for a few hours, then flew back to earth...(man can't fly)...
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Dont we just make them watch a Star Trek movie? :rolleyes:

The converse is true though Q, we know that they are metaphor because they are fables that are demonstrably copied again and again with minor changes across race, culture and time. No holy book predicted aeroplanes or heart surgery or genetics despite the best efforts of many re-interpreters to claim they do. The kernel of truth in such myths lays in the humanities not in theology.
 
Tao_Equus said:
Dont we just make them watch a Star Trek movie? :rolleyes:

The converse is true though Q, we know that they are metaphor because they are fables that are demonstrably copied again and again with minor changes across race, culture and time. No holy book predicted aeroplanes or heart surgery or genetics despite the best efforts of many re-interpreters to claim they do. The kernel of truth in such myths lays in the humanities not in theology.
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But Tao, there was allegedly a time when all men spoke one language, and shared one culture...before Babel. What if these myths come from a common theme that everyone experienced as a collective culture somewhere in the past? I mean, there was a point (biblically) that all men knew there was one God (I think it was before the flood issue that really soaked us)
 
Well evolution wise, there would have been a time where man was fairly concentrated, and most likely communicated in a way that all of mankind could understand. So tower of babel or no that makes a certain degree of sense.

Path, I would've totally repped u 4 that. But I need to spread the reps around a bit the letters on my screen tell me.
 
Quahom1 said:
But Tao, there was allegedly a time when all men spoke one language, and shared one culture...before Babel. What if these myths come from a common theme that everyone experienced as a collective culture somewhere in the past? I mean, there was a point (biblically) that all men knew there was one God (I think it was before the flood issue that really soaked us)
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I doubt there has ever been a common language amongst all living Homo sapiens alive at any one time. If there was it probably most resembles the language of the Kalahari bush people. As I recall they do not believe in one god. The genetic lineage of Homo sapiens is well mapped now and the dates of convergence discount the survival of an intact oral tradition over the 30,000 years before anything was written down. Far more plausible that they converge because people move memes around the world that chop and change but are tied to dominant themes. The elders of every culture to have any glimmer of respect had to have an explanation for the perennial questions. Much easier to borrow then than make them up from scratch.
 
Tao_Equus said:
I doubt there has ever been a common language amongst all living Homo sapiens alive at any one time. If there was it probably most resembles the language of the Kalahari bush people. As I recall they do not believe in one god. The genetic lineage of Homo sapiens is well mapped now and the dates of convergence discount the survival of an intact oral tradition over the 30,000 years before anything was written down. Far more plausible that they converge because people move memes around the world that chop and change but are tied to dominant themes. The elders of every culture to have any glimmer of respect had to have an explanation for the perennial questions. Much easier to borrow then than make them up from scratch.
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But then, Monotheists believe in Saints, angels and the like in conjunction with One Supreme being...so did the bushmen in a manner of speaking...no? :)
 
Quahom1 said:
But then, Monotheists believe in Saints, angels and the like in conjunction with One Supreme being...so did the bushmen in a manner of speaking...no? :)
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:D:D:D You just became a suicide bomber!! People make it up as they go along.... well demonstrated my friend ;)
 
Tao_Equus said:
:D:D:D You just became a suicide bomber!! People make it up as they go along.... well demonstrated my friend ;)
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I tell it as I see it Tao. The bomb can't go off if it isn't armed...:eek:

and you will note, I mentioned no tribal name...I said "bushmen". See, you tell the truth about things even when you aren't trying...lol
 
Amongst the Blackfoot tribe is the old stories which state that the people originally came from another part of the galaxy, so they didn't originally evolve here, but were brought here.
We have very close friends who are elders in that nation and have learned this from them.
The fact that we have such diverse races shows that such immigration is plausible.
Another layer to the mystery.
 
There is actually not a lot of diversity in the human species, in terms of our DNA. It's just that stuff we find salient (visually noticeable) is diverse. But other than that, we tick pretty much the same on the inside.

That said, I have no idea if there were ever any population from another place that came here. There's not really much evidence this occurred, but for various personal reasons I keep my mind open about it.

More on linguistics later, if I'm in the mood. ;)
 
Yes, there is more genetic diversity between certain tribal people in Africa within a square mile of each other than there is between someone of Asian descent and European descent, or between most other races. So that's why they're thinkin that the first humans started out there.
 
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