The real cause of Islamic terrorism - the yogic perspective

[Tao_Equus]

Hmmm, Niranjan it seems to me is getting a bit of a bashing from all you monotheists out there. Am I the only one that see's his/her point? Though it has been repeatedly stated. Is Nirinjan not alowed to suggest that each of us is capable of devine enlightenment? And that perhaps Mohamaad and his followers and editors down the ages did not fully comprehend its source?

Sure his cut and pastes are infuriatingly long, something that often puts me off and is against the overall spirit of CR. It is in the comparative section and I feel that you are all jumping on him like it was in the mono section, where you would have just cause. But this is not a hate inspired topic, far from it, and thus I dont understand this mass hostility.

My personal veiw of the Quoran is that it is highly dubious as an historical document. That it underwent careful editing by a powerful elite after the death of Muhamaad. (and all hadiths are the work of these same elites). And I dont trust powerful elites then or now. I have read much, if not all of it and to be frank I find a lot of it disengeniously manipulative and designed to control tha populace rather than promote ascension to a better future either here on Earth or beyond. I have little difference of opinion on the standard English Bible either. The Torah I am sadly ignorant of.

Do not many Christians speak of Rapture, this meeting in life of the holy spirit? Is this not what Niranjan speaks of? Please shout at this guy to cut out the cut n pastes, I'l back you on that, but at least try to listen to what he's trying to say. And correct me if I am wrong, that it is misinterpretation of the 'vision' and subsequent manipulation of its content that is behind Islamic extremism. I personaly say he has a point.

My 2c worth

TE

Note to Nianjan: As Muslimwoman has found some inconsistencies in your quoting it serves as a good example of why it is best to use your own words and thoughts to express an opinion. Plus a lot of us here despise cut and pastes as much as I do and you will find few people willing to engage you in debate if you use them. Regards TE

 

[Muslimwoman]

Hmmm, Niranjan it seems to me is getting a bit of a bashing from all you monotheists out there. Am I the only one that see's his/her point? Though it has been repeatedly stated. Is Nirinjan not alowed to suggest that each of us is capable of devine enlightenment? And that perhaps Mohamaad and his followers and editors down the ages did not fully comprehend its source?

Sure his cut and pastes are infuriatingly long, something that often puts me off and is against the overall spirit of CR. It is in the comparative section and I feel that you are all jumping on him like it was in the mono section, where you would have just cause. But this is not a hate inspired topic, far from it, and thus I dont understand this mass hostility.

My personal veiw of the Quoran is that it is highly dubious as an historical document. That it underwent careful editing by a powerful elite after the death of Muhamaad. (and all hadiths are the work of these same elites). And I dont trust powerful elites then or now. I have read much, if not all of it and to be frank I find a lot of it disengeniously manipulative and designed to control tha populace rather than promote ascension to a better future either here on Earth or beyond. I have little difference of opinion on the standard English Bible either. The Torah I am sadly ignorant of.

Do not many Christians speak of Rapture, this meeting in life of the holy spirit? Is this not what Niranjan speaks of? Please shout at this guy to cut out the cut n pastes, I'l back you on that, but at least try to listen to what he's trying to say. And correct me if I am wrong, that it is misinterpretation of the 'vision' and subsequent manipulation of its content that is behind Islamic extremism. I personaly say he has a point.

My 2c worth

TE

Note to Nianjan: As Muslimwoman has found some inconsistencies in your quoting it serves as a good example of why it is best to use your own words and thoughts to express an opinion. Plus a lot of us here despise cut and pastes as much as I do and you will find few people willing to engage you in debate if you use them. Regards TE

As salaam aleykum

My sincere apologies Niranjan, I have re-read my post and I was being a bit confrontational which is not what I wanted. As I said at the end of my post if you wish to discuss Islam then please do it in a respectful way and try to understand that Muslims must spend half their lives defending Islam against fundamentalist extremeists, it gets tiring and is a very difficult topic for us. But I was wrong to be so judgemental of your views and am happy to discuss the matter further if you wish.

Tao, thanks for your veiled reprimand, it was well deserved. The topic makes moderate Muslims so unhappy because we know the real teaching of Islam is nothing to do with terrorrism or oppression, so we tend to go a bit o.t.t., with our defence.

I agree that it is misinterpretation and manipulation that causes all religious extremism.

Also Tao & everyone, may I apologise for the cut and pastes in Islamic posts but we are not allowed to say the Quran says .......then give a generalisation in our own words. When we quote the Quran we must insert the verse so it can not be misrepresented. Hope you all understand and will try to keep them to a minimum.

By the way do people actually know the true meaning of the word Jihad? People more often then not refer to Islamic Jihad as Holy War - absolute rubbish. It means directed struggle. The Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) said that "the supreme jihad is against oneself" (i.e., one's ego, greed, desires, etc).

"Jihad is any earnest striving in the way of G-d, and can include personal, physical, intellectual, as well as military effort, for righteousness and against oppression and wrong-doing". Ziauddin Sardar & Zafar Abbas Malik

This is why moderate Muslims will always say terrorists are going against Islam, because they are not defending the Muslim way of life, rather they are attacking and killing civilians which is forbidden.

Salaam

 

[Tao_Equus]

As salaam aleykum



Tao, thanks for your veiled reprimand, it was well deserved.

And I am sorry if you felt it was particularly directed against you... for it certainly was not. I read the whole thread before posting and was commenting on the thread as a whole.

Also Tao & everyone, may I apologise for the cut and pastes in Islamic posts but we are not allowed to say the Quran says .......

I am aware of this and it is a conributory factor to my own veiws on the practice of Islam.

May I also add for clarity that I enjoy your posts and your efforts to defend your faith against ignorance. Whatever my own beliefs I still have a high regard for the expression of faith any other person holds dear. My veiw of all organised religion is sceptical but I am a deeply spiritual person and recognise that each of us finds their own path to walk.

Kind regards

TE

 

[wil]

By the way do people actually know the true meaning of the word Jihad? People more often then not refer to Islamic Jihad as Holy War - absolute rubbish. It means directed struggle. The Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) said that "the supreme jihad is against oneself" (i.e., one's ego, greed, desires, etc).

"Jihad is any earnest striving in the way of G-d, and can include personal, physical, intellectual, as well as military effort, for righteousness and against oppression and wrong-doing". Ziauddin Sardar & Zafar Abbas Malik

This is why moderate Muslims will always say terrorists are going against Islam, because they are not defending the Muslim way of life, rather they are attacking and killing civilians which is forbidden.

Muslims should hire planes to write this in the sky.

 

[Muslimwoman]

And I am sorry if you felt it was particularly directed against you... for it certainly was not. I read the whole thread before posting and was commenting on the thread as a whole.

I didnt think it was directed at me TE, I justed wanted to accept responsibility for my own aggressive post.

I am aware of this and it is a conributory factor to my own veiws on the practice of Islam.

It get on my nerves too but it is a requirement so I follow.

Salaam

 

[Muslimwoman]

Muslims should hire planes to write this in the sky.

Wil, if I had the spare cash I would.

Salaam

 

[niranjan]

This is not in 69:30-37 so where are you getting your quotes from?

I got it from the internet. Are you sure it is not there? If it is not , thanks for pointing it out. Still there are numerous other verses as well on this subject, which I will put here.

Now let us put this into context niranjan. Your posts, as many people do, take certain verses from the Quran and say there you go proof, in an attempt to inflame people. This verse is taken from Sura al-haaqqa (which means the reality). I hope I am allowed to post a link so that everyone can read the whole Sura (it is quite short), it has 3 different translations so that no-one can say "oh but something is lost in translation".

USC-MSA Compendium of Muslim Texts

You begin your quotes at verse 30 - WHY? By doing this you have completely missed the point of the Sura. The Sura is about the sure reality - that is that our behaviour will count for or against us on judgement day. It tells us that on the day of judgement "not an act of yours that ye hide will be hidden". It goes on to explain that for those given their book in the left hand (ie sinners) G-d (not the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) or Muslims) will command that he be put in hell and inserted into a chain etc. So these horrors are a part of the punishment for those sent to hell. Where exactly do you get the idea that that even remotely discusses or encourages terrorism? ?

Check this out.......

In India, Muslim fundamentalists tortured the Sikh Gurus and their families exactly as prescribed by the Koran. For example, the Sikh guru Tegh Bahadur was imprisoned in a cage like a wild animal, when he refused to forsake his religion for Islam. Three of his disciples were murdered in front of his eyes. One of them was Bhai Mati Das. He was sawed alive into little pieces. The other was wrapped up in cotton and burnt alive. Bhai Dyala, the third one, was boiled alive in a cauldron. Guru Tegh Bahadur himself was brutally tortured and killed in a similar fashion.

All this is documented facts, and this is the reason why the Khalsa , the organised military wing of Sikhism was formed , in order to prevent Islamic terrorism and to protect innocent sikhs and hindus and prevent the outrage of ladies by islamic fanatics.


Guru Teg Bahadur - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Guru Gobind Singh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Khalsa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia






You can also explain what these terrorists wanted when they slaughtered millions of hindus in India during the times of Allaudin khilji, Aurangzeb and others.

You can also give the reasons for the Direct Action day riots instigated by Jinnah, where thousands of hindus and sikhs were killed and women were raped by rampaging muslim terrorists.

You can also give the reasons for the moplah riots in Kerala in India by muslim fanatics where thousands of hindus were killed and women were molested by muslim fanatics.

You can also give the reasons why sikhs and hindus were killed in northern punjab and again their women raped during the partition riots.

You can also give the reason why hindus and buddhists in Bangladesh, an Islamic state are slaughtered and raped.

http://hinduhumanrights.org/Banglade...angladesh.html


Bangladesh was a part of India before the Muslim terrorists led by Mohammed Ali Jinnah separated it from India in 1947. It was then called East Pakistan. Jinnah lied to the thirteen million Hindus, Buddhists and Christians in East Pakistan and told them that they would not be persecuted against. He promised that they would be given full freedom under the Islamic rule. However, these religious minorities—especially the Hindus and the Buddhists have been tortured, raped and murdered by the Muslim terrorists ever since 1947. Over 2.5 million Hindus alone were slaughtered during the Pakistan-Bangladesh war in 1971. The types of crimes committed were perfectly in accordance with the Koran. Robert E. Burns, the author of Wrath of Allah states, "The mutilation was disgusting—eyes gouged out, pregnant women disemboweled, male genitals cut off, women’s breasts cut off….."

The persecution of "unbelievers" in the name of Allah , continues even today in Bangladesh under the Islamic rule. For example, Taslima Nasreen, the author of Lajja was given a death sentence for just stating the facts and speaking against the inhumane, cruel and barbaric nature of Islamic terrorism.


You can also give the reason why christian and hindu minorities in Pakistan are raped and slaughtered

Hindu Human Rights - Serving Hindus Worldwide



You can also give the reason why the Bahais were tortured, murdered and humiliated and denied human rights in islamic countries, even though they never harmed anyone.


Check this out.......


Persecution of Bahá'ís - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Bahá'u'lláh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


As the result of the Báb's execution in 1850 by a firing squad in Tabriz, an assassination attempt was instigated on the King of Persia, Nasser-al-Din Shah, two years later by a handful of angry Bábís. Although the assassins claimed they were working alone, the entire Bábí community was blamed, and a slaughter of several thousand Bábís followed. Many of the Bábís who were not killed, including Bahá'u'lláh, were imprisoned in the Síyáh-Chál (Black Pit), an underground dungeon of Tehran. Bahá'u'lláh himself was found to be innocent of complicity in the assassination plot, but remained in the Síyáh-Chál over four months.


An Austrian officer, Captain von Goumoens, working in the court of the Shah at the time, gave the following account after signing his resignation:
"[I saw] ones who, with gouged-out eyes, must eat, on the scene of the deed, their own amputated ears; or whose teeth are torn out with inhuman violence by the hand of the executioner; or whose bare skulls are simply crushed by blows from a hammer..." "As for the end itself, they hang the scorched and perforated bodies by their hands and feet to a tree head downwards, and now every Persian may try his marksmanship to his heart’s content... When I read over again, what I have written, I am overcome by the thought that those who are with you in our dearly beloved Austria may doubt the full truth of the picture, and accuse me of exaggeration. Would to God that I had not lived to see it!... At present I never leave my house, in order not to meet with fresh scenes of horror... I will no longer maintain my connection with the scene of such crimes.”







In Asia itself, the Zoroastrians, the Assyrians, the Buddhists, the Sikhs, the Hindus, the Jains, and the Bahais were the victims of Islamic terrorism, and terrible atrocities were perpetrated on them.

You seem quite content that Joan of Arc and her army were fighting a righteous battle, yet Muslims chopping fingers off was in your opinion against morality. Joan and her army carried very sharp broadswords - do you think they killed and maimed in a nice way??

War in the form of self-defence has also been sanctioned by our prophets, including Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita.

But none of these prophets have sanctioned sadistic physical torture like chopping of the fingers of the unbeliever. Sadism is condemned by our prophets.

Also Joan fought a defensive warfare against the english.

How do you explain the offensive warfare by Islamic fundamentalists against Asia, Africa and Europe, where millions were slaughtered, tortured and raped?

An example is the destruction of the Zoroastrian empire by Islamic fundamentalists, their temples and persecution of the Zoroastrians. Many Zoroastrians escaping Islamic terrorism and persecution , fled to India, where they were given refuge and full freedom of worship by the Hindus.

Persecu...f Zoroastrians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


You can also tell the reason why the assyrians were slaughtered and their women and little girls raped and taken into the harems of islamic fundamentalists.





In early 1918, many Assyrians started to flee present-day Turkey. Mar Shimon Benyamin had arranged for some 3,500 Assyrians to reside in the district of Khoi. Not long after settling in, Kurdish troops of the Ottoman Army massacred the population almost entirely. One of the few that survived was Reverend John Eshoo. After escaping, he stated:

You have undoubtedly heard of the Assyrian massacre of Khoi, but I am certain you do not know the details."​

These Assyrians were assembled into one caravansary, and shot to death by guns and revolvers. Blood literally flowed in little streams, and the entire open space within the caravansary became a pool of crimson liquid. The place was too small to hold all the living victims waiting for execution. They were brought in groups, and each new group was compelled to stand over the heap of the still bleeding bodies and shot to death. The fearful place became literally a human slaughter house, receiving its speechless victims, in groups of ten and twenty at a time, for execution.​

At the same time, the Assyrians, who were residing in the suburb of the city, were brought together and driven into the spacious courtyard of a house [...] The Assyrian refugees were kept under guard for eight days, without anything to eat. At last they were removed from their place of confinement and taken to a spot prepared for their brutal killing. These helpless Assyrians marched like lambs to their slaughter, and they opened not their mouth, save by sayings "Lord, into thy hands we commit our spirits. [...]​

The executioners began by cutting first the fingers of their victims, join by joint, till the two hands were entirely amputated. Then they were stretched on the ground, after the manner of the animals that are slain in the Fast, but these with their faces turned upward, and their heads resting upon the stones or blocks of wood Then their throats were half cut, so as to prolong their torture of dying, and while struggling in the agony of death, the victims were kicked and clubbed by heavy poles the murderers carried Many of them, while still laboring under the pain of death, were thrown into ditches and buried before their souls had expired.​

The young men and the able-bodied men were separated from among the very young and the old. They were taken some distance from the city and used as targets by the shooters. They all fell, a few not mortally wounded. One of the leaders went to the heaps of the fallen and shouted aloud, swearing by the names of Islam's prophets that those who had not received mortal wounds should rise and depart, as they would not be harmed any more. A few, thus deceived, stood up, but only to fall this time killed by another volley from the guns of the murderers.​

Some of the younger and good looking women, together with a few little girls of attractive appearance, pleaded to be killed. Against their will were forced into Islam's harems. Others were subjected to such fiendish insults that I cannot possibly describe. Death, however, came to their rescue and saved them from the vile passions of the demons. The death toll of Assyrians totaled 2,770 men, women and children.​

Assyrian Genocide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia​

And if you want, I can give you more. This is just the tip of the iceberg.

As you quote carefully picked out verses from the Quran to point out how Islam promotes terror I shall respond in peace:

When they do aught that is shameful, they say: "We found our fathers doing so"; and "Allah commanded us thus": Say: "Nay, Allah never commands what is shameful: do ye say of Allah what ye know not?" (Quran 7:28)

God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)

The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) has forbidden punishment with fire.
He once listed murder as the second of the major sins, and he even warned that on the Day of Judgment, The first cases to be adjudicated between people on the Day of Judgment will be those of bloodshed.

God commands justice and doing good and giving to relatives. And He forbids indecency and doing wrong and tyranny. He warns you so that hopefully you will pay heed. (Quran, 16:90)

And do good as God has been good to you. And do not seek to cause corruption in the earth. God does not love corrupters. (Quran, 28:77)

Be good to your parents and relatives and to orphans and the very poor, and to neighbours who are related to you and neighbours who are not related to you, and to companions and travellers and your slaves. God does not love anyone vain or boastful. (Qur'an, 4:36)

Help one another in benevolence and piety. Do not help each other to wrongdoing and enmity. And fear God. God is severe in retribution. (Qur'an, 5:2)

Gosh that really makes me want to rush out and commit murder I could go on all night quoting verses of peace from the Quran.?

Vivekananda emphasizes the superstitions , not the truths. Please read my first post again.

By the way I have been rather offended by the tone of some of your posts on this thread. I accept this is an emotional issue but please discuss Islam with respect, Muslims will be happy to discuss issues with you if you are respectful even on such a difficult topic.

Salaam

Sorry about that, and I apologize if I have offended your feelings. But I believe I have only stated the facts.

 

[Muslimwoman]

I got it from the internet. Are you sure it is not there? If it is not , thanks for pointing it out. Still there are numerous other verses as well on this subject, which I will put here.

as salaam aleykum Niranjan

I am sure it is not there. I wasn't trying to be rude, just pointing out a difficulty with your argument. Please be very careful where you pick up Quranic verses from, there are many anti-Islamic websites disguised as Islamic ones (I found this out through trial and error). If you need to look up a verse try sticking to this (it has 3 translations (not the best) but it does give an overall view). Also try to be careful in reading the whole chapter so that you understand the context of the verse. Thank you.

USC-MSA Compendium of Muslim Texts

Check this out.......

In India, Muslim fundamentalists tortured the Sikh Gurus and their families exactly as prescribed by the Koran. For example, the Sikh guru Tegh Bahadur was imprisoned in a cage like a wild animal, when he refused to forsake his religion for Islam. Three of his disciples were murdered in front of his eyes. One of them was Bhai Mati Das. He was sawed alive into little pieces. The other was wrapped up in cotton and burnt alive. Bhai Dyala, the third one, was boiled alive in a cauldron. Guru Tegh Bahadur himself was brutally tortured and killed in a similar fashion.

All this is documented facts, and this is the reason why the Khalsa , the organised military wing of Sikhism was formed , in order to prevent Islamic terrorism and to protect innocent sikhs and hindus and prevent the outrage of ladies by islamic fanatics.

I shall pray for these people tonight. What can I say? If you read my posts on this forum you can see examples of issues that Muslim scholars interpret differently but there are some fundamental issues that all Muslims should agree on, because they are explicitly contained in the Quran. One of these is that there can be no compulsion in religion (hence Muslim men can marry a Christian or Jewish woman but cannot compel her to convert to Islam).

It is an unfortunate fact of the human condition that there have always been and always will be people who go far from the right path and these people are, in any sane mind, among them. These hidious and abhorrent acts are not permitted by Islam but some people will take a small verse of the Quran (or indeed any religious book) and misinterpret it (often by not reading the verse in its correct context). I am not being rude but as you did in your post that I first answered. Yes the verse you quoted refers to terrible acts of torture but the verse was referring to acts committed in Hell, not here on earth. It is so easily done and if you are of the nature that wants a reason to torture and kill then you will find small verses in all scriptures that you can twist to support your base needs.

I am so ashamed when I read articles like this, with acts of terrorism and oppression and it also makes me so angry that anyone would misuse the Quran in this awful way. Believe me, the Muslims that espouse that Islam is a religion of peace (myself being one of them), truly believe this and interpret the Quran in this way (obviously we believe the correct way) but there are those, which I will not deny, that do use Islam as a means of committing murder, rape, acts of terrorism, etc. Look to the traditional scholars, whose interpretations I have been known not to accept , they do not accept these acts as acceptable under Islam.

I can only offer my sincere and heartfelt shame and anger that anyone has been tortured and murdered under the name of Islam, it is truly unIslamic.

You can also explain what these terrorists wanted when they slaughtered millions of hindus in India during the times of Allaudin khilji, Aurangzeb and others.

You can also give the reasons for the Direct Action day riots instigated by Jinnah, where thousands of hindus and sikhs were killed and women were raped by rampaging muslim terrorists.

You can also give the reasons for the moplah riots in Kerala in India by muslim fanatics where thousands of hindus were killed and women were molested by muslim fanatics.

You can also give the reasons why sikhs and hindus were killed in northern punjab and again their women raped during the partition riots.

You can also give the reason why hindus and buddhists in Bangladesh, an Islamic state are slaughtered and raped.

I cannot explain how the mind of a murderer works, what pleasure they get, why they feel the need for their actions, etc., because I am not of their mind. I am sorry but I cannot answer for these people, or would even want to try, because I do not share their views or desires or interpretations of Islam.

Bangladesh was a part of India before the Muslim terrorists led by Mohammed Ali Jinnah separated it from India in 1947. It was then called East Pakistan. Jinnah lied to the thirteen million Hindus, Buddhists and Christians in East Pakistan and told them that they would not be persecuted against. He promised that they would be given full freedom under the Islamic rule. However, these religious minorities—especially the Hindus and the Buddhists have been tortured, raped and murdered by the Muslim terrorists ever since 1947. Over 2.5 million Hindus alone were slaughtered during the Pakistan-Bangladesh war in 1971. The types of crimes committed were perfectly in accordance with the Koran. Robert E. Burns, the author of Wrath of Allah states, "The mutilation was disgusting—eyes gouged out, pregnant women disemboweled, male genitals cut off, women’s breasts cut off…..".

I am in no way going to try to defend these hidious actions but would ask you to let me know why you make the statement in red. Perhaps I am reading the Quran incorrectly but I find nothing contained therein to even suggest gouging eyes, disemboweling, castrastion, mutilation, etc....

I really would like you to let me know the source for this opinion because often people believe such things are in the Quran based on the acts of so called 'Muslims', they do not realise what is or is not actually in the Quran and I have yet to read anything like this in the Quran (other than the references to the horrors awaiting sinners committed to Hell).

The persecution of "unbelievers" in the name of Allah , continues even today in Bangladesh under the Islamic rule. For example, Taslima Nasreen, the author of Lajja was given a death sentence for just stating the facts and speaking against the inhumane, cruel and barbaric nature of Islamic terrorism.

So if I go out tomorrow and torture, then kill Muslims in retribution, can I then say your words incited me to commit these attrocities? As it was you that brought these hidious acts to my attention does it make you in any way responsible for my misguided actions? If no then why try to blame Allah and Islam for the actions of these people.

I know that is easy to say, I am not living under tyranical conditions and I thank Allah for that mercy. I also understand that such persecution makes people so angry (it makes me angry) and want revenge but violence just brings more violence. Is there anything anyone reading your posts can do? Can we email a government in protest or the human rights commission?

War in the form of self-defence has also been sanctioned by our prophets, including Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita.

But none of these prophets have sanctioned sadistic physical torture like chopping of the fingers of the unbeliever. Sadism is condemned by our prophets.

I think you didn't really read my post, or you would have read that the verse you quoted was referring to the conditions in Hell or whould you like Muslims to be responsible for what happens in Hell as well?

The Prophet Mohammad (pbuh), as all the Prophets (pbut) before him only permitted war as a form of self defence. This is no surprise, if we accept that there is only one G-d then obviously His message does not change with time.

Sorry about that, and I apologize if I have offended your feelings. But I believe I have only stated the facts.

No need to apologise, you are clearly angry about this and with good reason. What I am trying to say to you is to blame the people that commit these awful acts, not Islam which forbids such acts. You are asking me to explain every attrocity committed in the name of Islam and obviously I cannot, I do not even understand how they think, where they get these odd ideas from or what they hope to achieve.

I never try to deny the attrocities committed under the name Islam but I do accept this is a small percentage of extremists who shall have to answer for their actions to G-d. There are now an estimated 1.5 billion (some say more)Muslims in the world and growing at almost 3% per year, only a very small minority commit such acts and believe such extreme views. Please do not paint our religion or us all with the same brush.

Salaam

 

[niranjan]

I shall pray for these people tonight. What can I say?

Sorry , but your prayers are not going to bring them back and undo all the torture, rape and murder committed against them.

. One of these is that there can be no compulsion in religion (hence Muslim men can marry a Christian or Jewish woman but cannot compel her to convert to Islam).

Yes, that is why numerous non-muslims like the zoroastrians, hindus, buddhists, sikhs, jains, bahais, are tortured and slaughtered,and forced to convert to Islam. History is witness to this.

It is an unfortunate fact of the human condition that there have always been and always will be people who go far from the right path and these people are, in any sane mind, among them. These hidious and abhorrent acts are not permitted by Islam but some people will take a small verse of the Quran (or indeed any religious book) and misinterpret it (often by not reading the verse in its correct context). I am not being rude but as you did in your post that I first answered. Yes the verse you quoted refers to terrible acts of torture but the verse was referring to acts committed in Hell, not here on earth. It is so easily done and if you are of the nature that wants a reason to torture and kill then you will find small verses in all scriptures that you can twist to support your base needs

And where are verses in hinduism , buddhism, jainism, sikhism , bahaism, zoroastrianism, shintoism, taoism, christianity where there are verses which enables one to slaughter , rape and torture the unbelievers. I have never heard of a hindu, buddhist, jain, sikh, shintoist, taoist suicide bomber killing innocent civilians, women and children all over the world.

I Believe me, the Muslims that espouse that Islam is a religion of peace (myself being one of them), truly believe this and interpret the Quran in this way (obviously we believe the correct way) but there are those, which I will not deny, that do use Islam as a means of committing murder, rape, acts of terrorism, etc. Look to the traditional scholars, whose interpretations I have been known not to accept , they do not accept these acts as acceptable under Islam.

Then where were these peaceful scholars when the hindus, buddhists, sikhs, jains, bahais, zoroastrians, assyrians, were slaughtered and raped and tortured in asia and elsewhere both in the past and in the present.
Sorry but this is inexcusable.

It is a sacred and holy duty for us to destroy islamic terrorism , as said by our prophet Guru Govind Singh, the creator of the holy khalsa, and who baptized saint-warriors to fight against islamic terrorisma and prevent the killing of innocent people by these terrorists and the rape of hindu and sikh ladies by them and to crush islamic terrorism with an iron fist.

I can only offer my sincere and heartfelt shame and anger that anyone has been tortured and murdered under the name of Islam, it is truly unIslamic.

You can give that to the millions of victims of islamic terrorism all over the world, but in my opinion , I don't think it will compensate even a millionth of the intense pain, suffering and agony suffered by these innocents.

I cannot explain how the mind of a murderer works, what pleasure they get, why they feel the need for their actions, etc., because I am not of their mind. I am sorry but I cannot answer for these people, or would even want to try, because I do not share their views or desires or interpretations of Islam.

You don't have to share their views, but it is your duty to get rid of them and educate your community on the havoc and carnage these particular verses have committed since the 7th century A.D., and make sure it does not happen again.

I am in no way going to try to defend these hidious actions but would ask you to let me know why you make the statement in red. Perhaps I am reading the Quran incorrectly but I find nothing contained therein to even suggest gouging eyes, disemboweling, castrastion, mutilation, etc.....

This was done with the bahais as well as recorded by the austrian officer, and the assyrians as well, as recorded by one of their survivors.

1. (Koran 8:12) "Remember Thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the believers, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them."


4. (Koran 69:30-37) "(It will be said) Take him and fetter him and expose him to hell fire. And then insert him in a chain whereof the length is seventy cubits. Lo! he used not to believe in God the tremendous, and urged not on the feeding of the wretched. Therefore hath he no lover hear this day nor any food save filth which none but sinners eat."



5. (Koran 5: 33-34) "The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom; Save those who repent before ye overpower them. For know that Allah is forgiving, merciful."


6. (Koran 22: 19-22) "These twain (the believers and the disbelievers) are two opponents who contend concerning their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them, boiling fluid will be poured down their heads. Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning."



The only punishment of those that wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is that they should be murdered, or crucified, or their hands and their feet should be cut-off on opposite sides, or they should be imprisoned…. (Koran 5:33)


12.Sura 9:29-31 "Fight those who believe not in God nor the last day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of truth, (even if they are) of the people of the Book, until they pay the jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.



IX/73:
Oh Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's-end.



XCVIII/6:
Lo! those who disbelieve, among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings.


XLIV/43-50:
Lo! the tree of Zaqqum [2], The food of the sinner! Like molten brass, it seetheth in their bellies As the seething of boiling water. (And it will be said): Take him and drag him to the midst of hell, Then pour upon his head the torment of boiling water. (Saying): Taste! Lo! thou west forsooth the mighty, the noble! Lo! this is that whereof ye used to doubt.



XXXVII/67-68:
And afterward, lo! thereupon they have a drink of boiling water And afterward, lo! their return is surely unto hell




XXII/19-22:
These twain (the believers and the disbelievers) are two opponents who contend concerning their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads. Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning.

LXXVI/4:
Lo! We have prepared for disbelievers manacles and carcans and a raging fire.

So if I go out tomorrow and torture, then kill Muslims in retribution, can I then say your words incited me to commit these attrocities? As it was you that brought these hidious acts to my attention does it make you in any way responsible for my misguided actions? If no then why try to blame Allah and Islam for the actions of these people.

And where have I stated that you should kill muslims in retribution!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know that is easy to say, I am not living under tyranical conditions and I thank Allah for that mercy. I also understand that such persecution makes people so angry (it makes me angry) and want revenge but violence just brings more violence. Is there anything anyone reading your posts can do? Can we email a government in protest or the human rights commission? .

I have not stated that we should employ force against islamic terrorists, (though I dont think it is a bad idea).

As I said before, you can do your duty by educating your community on the havoc and carnage these verses have committed since the 7th century.A.D., and prevent anymore violence . We will be taking steps on our own in this matter. Our combined efforts will help to destroy islamic terrorism.

I think you didn't really read my post, or you would have read that the verse you quoted was referring to the conditions in Hell or whould you like Muslims to be responsible for what happens in Hell as well?.

I am not bothered about what happens in hell or mars or anything. I am bothered about what is happening on earth.

The Prophet Mohammad (pbuh), as all the Prophets (pbut) before him only permitted war as a form of self defence. This is no surprise, if we accept that there is only one G-d then obviously His message does not change with time.
?.

Wonder why islamic fundamentalists engaged in offensive warfare against asia, africa and europe then.

I never try to deny the attrocities committed under the name Islam but I do accept this is a small percentage of extremists who shall have to answer for their actions to G-d. There are now an estimated 1.5 billion (some say more)Muslims in the world and growing at almost 3% per year, only a very small minority commit such acts and believe such extreme views. Please do not paint our religion or us all with the same brush.

Salaam

Sorry but the hindus, buddhists, bahais, sikhs, jains, are more numerous than the muslims, yet you dont find any suicide bombers or terrorists or bomb attacks by them.

Islamic terrorism is a global phenomenon
Ever heard of 9/11, the madrid bombings, beslan, 7/7 in U.K., bomb blasts in mumbai, bali bomb blasts, which are all very recent. All over the world China, Russia, the U.S. , the U.K., denmark, holland, germany, france, spain, sudan, algeria, morocco, libya, egypt, saudi arabia, afghanistan, pakistan, india, bangladesh, thailand, phillipines, indonesia, malaysia , uzbekistan, iran and other countries are suffering from islamic terrorism , which clearly is a global problem.

It has clearly become a bloody war between humanity and islamic terrorism.

 

[Muslimwoman]

Niranjan

I said that I would pray for these people because I was truly moved by the account of their torture and death. When I said "What can I say", it did not refer to my prayers, I am fully aware of how to pray. I was asking a rhetorical question, what can I say about the torture and deaths.

You are still quoting verses of the Quran which do not refer to acts to be carried out on earth but in Hell. Will you tell G-d what should happen in Hell?

Now what was the religion of the man that shot and killed Mohandas K. Gandhi? Was he not a Hindu? Who killed Indhira Gandhi? Were they not Sikhs? Shall I carry on?

I am sorry that your hatred drives you so blindly that you are unable to even read what a fellow human being has written. There is little point my saying anything else as you will refuse to read it. Let me know if you wish to discuss an issue.

Salaam

 

[cyberpi]

Niranjan,
Those are some horrific interpretations and examples of crimes against humanity. Have you also looked at some other events in the last century? WWII?... WWI? Vietnam war? Korean war? Afghanistan war? The genocide in Rwanda? Goulags in Russia? Are they somehow less offensive? The number slaughtered in WWII is mind-blowing... top of the chart... off the records... all other numbers and atrocities pale in comparison... and today, it is like it never even happened. What religion were those people following?

 

[Muslimwoman]

Niranjan

Just re-read your quotes, as I have said repeatedly but you ignore, these refer to tortures in Hell.

So where are the verses that tell Muslims to perform castration, cutting breasts off, pregnant women disembowled, eyes gouged out?

Salaam

 

[niranjan]

.

You are still quoting verses of the Quran which do not refer to acts to be carried out on earth but in Hell. Will you tell G-d what should happen in Hell?

And what about the quran telling one to chop off the fingers of the so-called unbeliever, mutilating his limbs, and crucifying him, all of which violates morality . And there are a lot of verses of this.

.
Now what was the religion of the man that shot and killed Mohandas K. Gandhi? Was he not a Hindu? Who killed Indhira Gandhi? Were they not Sikhs? Shall I carry on?

And so what? These are just rare exceptions. Godse killed Gandhi, due to gandhis inability to protect innocent hindu and sikh civilians from islamic terrorism during the direct action day riots in calcutta and the partition riots in northern punjab where islamic terrorists raped and killed hindu and sikh civilians.

Sikh militancy was a creation of the pakistani isi , which trained misguided sikh youths and equipped them with sophisticated weapons like AK-47 rifles, which cannot be obtained in punjab or india, but is commonplace in pakistan and afghanistan, which is responsible for the nauseating violence in these islamic countries.

Anyway sikh terrorism was crushed in a few years by the sikhs themselves. The heroic exploits of the legendary sikh police officer K.P.S.Gill is famous in India.

And there are more hindus, sikhs , jains and buddhists , taoists, shintoists,bahais all over the world who are more numerous than the muslims, but I have never heard of them involved in suicide bombings, killing of innocent civilians of other religions, bomb attacks and raping women and little girls of other religions.

.
. Let me know if you wish to discuss an issue.

Salaam

I am discussing the issue.

 

[niranjan]

Niranjan,
Those are some horrific interpretations and examples of crimes against humanity. Have you also looked at some other events in the last century? WWII?... WWI? Vietnam war? Korean war? Afghanistan war? The genocide in Rwanda? Goulags in Russia? Are they somehow less offensive? The number slaughtered in WWII is mind-blowing... top of the chart... off the records... all other numbers and atrocities pale in comparison... and today, it is like it never even happened. What religion were those people following?

Stick to the topic. We are discussing the cause of islamic terrorism, not the cause of nazism or communism or tribal wars. If you want I will discuss it on other threads .

And Islamic terrorism has been there ever since the 7th century A.D. and is not a recent phenomenon like nazism or communism.

 

[niranjan]

Niranjan

Just re-read your quotes, as I have said repeatedly but you ignore, these refer to tortures in Hell.

And what about the verses that exhorts one to chop off the fingers of the unbeliever , mutilate his limbs, crucify him, impose the jizya tax on him. These are verses for conducting affairs on earth , not on hell.

Anyway the muslim fundamentalists had no problems in creating a veritable hell on earth, when they tortured the sikh guru Teg Bahadur, and his disciples exactly according to the verses of torture on hell. Aurangzeb was a learned authority on the quran. He had numerous islamic clerics and scholars with him in his court. Still why didn't anyone tell him not to perform these acts ?

So where are the verses that tell Muslims to perform castration, cutting breasts off, pregnant women disembowled, eyes gouged out?

Salaam

There are plenty of torture verses in the quran, both on hell and on earth.
I have read the quran and hence I know that there are no verses telling one to castrate , cut breasts off and disembowel pregnant women and stuff.

I think our american scholar who reported these crimes must have felt that these torture techniques are there in the quran, as there are indeed verses which exhort one to torture intensely the unbeliever on earth and hell as well, and these torture verses are all very diabolical. I think it is with respect to these torture verses that he meant that these particular diabolical torture methods are there in the quran.

Any way we know that these have happened as can be seen with the sikh gurus and disciples , the bahais, the assyrians, and many others as well.

 

[Tao_Equus]

Just a couple of points Muslimwoman.

I think that barbaric mutilations, rapes etc exist anywhere in a Holy book is unforgivable. And I personaly want nothing to do with any God who would condone such acts either here on Earth or on any judgement day. That they exist in the Q'uran leads them to be interpreted as Gods will and gives sanction to the crazy zealots of Islam. I think it a sham to hide behind it being a reference to judgement day. Islam has to strike all reference to such crazy notions from all of its scriptures if it wants to stop them being used as a justification for evil.

TE

 

[Muslimwoman]

Just a couple of points Muslimwoman.

I think that barbaric mutilations, rapes etc exist anywhere in a Holy book is unforgivable. And I personaly want nothing to do with any God who would condone such acts either here on Earth or on any judgement day. That they exist in the Q'uran leads them to be interpreted as Gods will and gives sanction to the crazy zealots of Islam. I think it a sham to hide behind it being a reference to judgement day. Islam has to strike all reference to such crazy notions from all of its scriptures if it wants to stop them being used as a justification for evil.

TE

as salaam aleykum TE

I shall answer your post first as it will take time to answer Niranjan.

The Quran, like any scripture, can only be (mis)interpreted to be used for evil if that is what you want. An example is the verses Naranjan quoted for me, they must be read in context to the whole chapter, as every chapter must be read in context to the whole Quran. Then you see that they refer to conditions and acts in Hell.

I shall give you one of the verses the extremists misinterpret:

"There shall be no compulsion in religion" (2:256)

Now ask yourself how can that be misinterpreted? To any reasonable, moral person it is a very clear verse, backed up by many others. However, the extremists insist it was abrogated by other verses. Are these supposed righteous men then suggesting G-d changed His mind - that is blasphemy.

Strike it from all scriptures? Who is in a position to remove the word of G-d from any of His scriptures? Who is in a position to tell G-d what is or is not unforgiveable. How can it be a sham to hide behind the truth? It does refer to Judgement Day and conditions in Hell.

Of course I do not say you must believe as I believe but to me the Quran for Muslims is the word of G-d, so we cannot change it. If you do not believe that then yes the answer seems easy but what would a person of the Jewish faith say if you said their scrolls of scripture are outdated, put them on cd and burn the scrolls or you dont like a reference in them so just take it out of the scrolls. I accept what you say, if the verses were not there they could not be misinterpreted but they cannot be removed, the Quran in it's original wording is protected by G-d. Plus if I wrote the cat sat on the mat some looney would interpret it to mean something dark if that was their will.

I leave you with this question, what does the Quran say the punishment is for apostacy? That is a literal question and I would like you to answer it if you don't mind.

Salaam

 

[Muslimwoman]

I am discussing the issue.

as salaam aleykum Niranjan

Sorry but you were not discussing, you were ranting at me. You didn't read or respond to what I was saying. I am trying to understand how angry you are about this but I am not of the terrorist mind so please try to discuss with me politely, I shall respect your views but only if you discuss.

And so what? These are just rare exceptions. Godse killed Gandhi, due to gandhis inability to protect innocent hindu and sikh civilians from islamic terrorism during the direct action day riots in calcutta and the partition riots in northern punjab where islamic terrorists raped and killed hindu and sikh civilians.

You stated that I could not find attorcities committed by Sikhs or Hindu's and without even looking up attrocities by followers of either religion I could name these two. You also stated Christians didn't commit attrocities and I refrained from talking about the miriad of attrocities committed in the name of G-d by Christians. I was merely trying to demonstrate a point, people do not blame all Sikhs or Hindus for these murders so why blame all Muslims for the attrocities committed by a tiny minority?

Sikh militancy was a creation of the pakistani isi , which trained misguided sikh youths and equipped them with sophisticated weapons like AK-47 rifles, which cannot be obtained in punjab or india, but is commonplace in pakistan and afghanistan, which is responsible for the nauseating violence in these islamic countries.

I was atonished at this comment. So a young Sikh with an AK47 is misguided and a young Muslim with an AK47 is what?........the correct answer is misguided. The men we must blame for all attrocities by all religious groups are the teachers/corrupters of these young people.

You say we must stop these people. I am watching the news as I type and Saudi Arabia has arrested over 100 extremists (some of whom were being trained as pilots) and taken their weapons.

Anyway sikh terrorism was crushed in a few years by the sikhs themselves. The heroic exploits of the legendary sikh police officer K.P.S.Gill is famous in India.

I am sorry I had not heard of KPS Gill, so I looked him up and this is from the first website I opened:

Kanwar Pal Singh Gill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He was also convicted by Indian courts for sexual misconduct - an incident when he misbehaved with a woman IAS officer ( Rupen Deol) during a party.


This is from the second site I opened (I chose this site as it is called sikhwiki so I thought it would be appropriate):

KPS Gill - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia.

The widow of murdered Punjab-based human rights activist Jaswant singh khalra said former Punjab Director General of Police K.P.S. Gill, also known as the "Butcher of Punjab" should be tried as a war criminal for genocide of Sikhs in a world court for massive killings that occurred in Punjab under his command and that of the central government of India.
Paramjit Kaur Khalra - who has been leading the fight for justice following the kidnapping and murder of her husband in September 1995 - told a media gathering in Surrey that she thinks the only way the victims - which number well above 25,000 people - can get justice is if criminal cops like Gill and others are tried in a world court like other war criminals from Europe, Africa and Central America.

This is a large and interesting article, although I hardly think it helps your side of the discussion.

It is my understanding that thousands of sikhs were massacred by hindus in the 1984 riots?

And there are more hindus, sikhs , jains and buddhists , taoists, shintoists,bahais all over the world who are more numerous than the muslims, but I have never heard of them involved in suicide bombings, killing of innocent civilians of other religions, bomb attacks and raping women and little girls of other religions.

I agree completely that there are many faiths in the world that commit themselves to non-violence but to include sikhs and hindus in that list is rather insulting - look......

Here you have an 8 year old girl raped by Hindus:


[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]4 April 1999 [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Breaking the shackles [SIZE=+0] - Kalpana Sharma (The Hindu Magazine)[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]On March 8th, the International Women's Day, around 400 women in a village in Karnataka had gathered. All these women (mainly Dalits) are participating in empowerment and literacy programs.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Thus far the Dalit women had to do all kinds of practices, because of them being a Dalit.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]'Our young daughters had to sit on the laps of the Gowdas (upper caste men) in our villages and remove with their mouth the money the men were clenching between their teeth'.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]An old men in our villageraped and eight-year old Harijan (Dalit) girl, because he had been told by the government doctor that he would be cured of a sexually transmitted disease in this way'.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]'The Gowdas would taunt us and say that even if we educated our daughters, who would give them a job? Better send them to us'.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]In the women groups, the women were made believe that they have the power to change the circumstances into which they were born. Through the women groups they were able to stop sitations like the above mentioned.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]This can be considered to be representing a virtual social revolution. The women are initiating tremendous important steps. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]The Hindu Group of Publications : Home Page[/SIZE][/FONT]

Here you have mass murder and rape of young girls and old women by Hindus:

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]12 March 1999 [/FONT] [FONT=Arial,Helvetica]A history of [SIZE=+0]massacres[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=+0] - Venkitesh Ramakrishnan (Frontline)[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]In the period of 1990 - 1999, 35 instances of caste-based massacres took place. In total 400 persons were killed, of which more than 350 were from among the lower castes (Dalits). [/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]The number of attacks against Dalits and other lower-caste people has gone up every time a backward caste leader rose to power. Nearly all of the atrocities have been done by the private army of landlords, the Ranvir Sena. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]They did not only kill around 200 people in the last 5 years, they also participated in the conduction of the 'mass rape' campaign. In this campaign 200 Dalit women between 6 and 70 years old were raped (in 1992).[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]In the end the Ranvir Sena boosts on their actions - they learn the Dalits a lesson, that if they tried to take on the landlords the women of their communities will be humiliated[/SIZE][/FONT]
​

Or do these people not count because they are from a poor caste?

Here you have bombings by sikhs:

1991 Global Terrorism: Asia Overview


Separatists also have stepped up attacks against journalists. In January, Sikh extremists declared war on the press in Punjab and forced reporters to stop calling them terrorists. Newsmen critical of Sikh terrorist tactics received death threats. Kashmiri groups also assassinated journalists, including the editor of the Urdu daily Al-Safa in April. Although Assamese and Kashmiri terrorists limited their operations to their respective states, Sikh terrorists expanded their operations outside Punjab. In late January, Sikh terrorists bombed a movie theater in New Delhi, injuring six people. Sikh extremists probably also were responsible for a bombing in New Delhi in late April that killed three people and wounded eight. In mid-October, a Sikh bomb killed at least 55 people and wounded 125 others at a Hindu festival in Uttar Pradesh, near the Nepalese border. In late August, four members of the Khalistan Liberation Front unsuccessfully attempted to assassinate the Indian Ambassador to Romania in Bucharest; Romanian antiterrorist experts killed one person and captured the other three. This was the first Sikh terrorist operation outside India since 1987.


On 6 December 1992 hysterical hoards of the langot brigade
manualy destroyed a 15 century old mosque as part of their campaign to
build a Hindu Temple in its place

Need I continue?

This in no way excuses the behaviour of so called Muslims committing such attrocities. What makes a terrorist? The experts say it is not religion but economic hardship, oppression, lack of education and a feeling of helplessness. One of the difficulties for Muslims is the number of borders between Muslim communities, so how do we cross borders to stop these people without causing more war in the world? I do not have the answers to the problems of the world, I wish I did, but we must pray that the new generations have more sense than their forefathers.

Salaam

 

[niranjan]

as salaam aleykum TE

I shall answer your post first as it will take time to answer Niranjan.

The Quran, like any scripture, can only be (mis)interpreted to be used for evil if that is what you want. An example is the verses Naranjan quoted for me, they must be read in context to the whole chapter, as every chapter must be read in context to the whole Quran. Then you see that they refer to conditions and acts in Hell.

I shall give you one of the verses the extremists misinterpret:

"There shall be no compulsion in religion" (2:256)

Now ask yourself how can that be misinterpreted? To any reasonable, moral person it is a very clear verse, backed up by many others. However, the extremists insist it was abrogated by other verses. Are these supposed righteous men then suggesting G-d changed His mind - that is blasphemy.

Strike it from all scriptures? Who is in a position to remove the word of G-d from any of His scriptures? Who is in a position to tell G-d what is or is not unforgiveable. How can it be a sham to hide behind the truth? It does refer to Judgement Day and conditions in Hell.

Of course I do not say you must believe as I believe but to me the Quran for Muslims is the word of G-d, so we cannot change it. If you do not believe that then yes the answer seems easy but what would a person of the Jewish faith say if you said their scrolls of scripture are outdated, put them on cd and burn the scrolls or you dont like a reference in them so just take it out of the scrolls. I accept what you say, if the verses were not there they could not be misinterpreted but they cannot be removed, the Quran in it's original wording is protected by G-d. Plus if I wrote the cat sat on the mat some looney would interpret it to mean something dark if that was their will.

I leave you with this question, what does the Quran say the punishment is for apostacy? That is a literal question and I would like you to answer it if you don't mind.

Salaam

Look MW, te tells you to get rid of the verses that tells one to sadistically torture the unbeliever and mutilate him, chop off his fingers, crucify him and impose the jizya tax on humiliated so-called unbelievers. All this violates morality. And this has been carried out in many countries and cultures and other religions ever since the 7th century A.D. and history is proof of this.

Aurangzeb was a great learned authority on the quran and was a devout muslim. He had in his court many islamic scholars and clerics who are well-versed in the quran . Why didn't Aurangzebs learning or his numerous islamic scholars and clerics prevent him from torturing the sikh guru teg bahadur and his disciples ?

And this is not only in India but in other islamic countries as well.

 

[niranjan]

as salaam aleykum Niranjan

Sorry but you were not discussing, you were ranting at me. You didn't read or respond to what I was saying. I am trying to understand how angry you are about this but I am not of the terrorist mind so please try to discuss with me politely, I shall respect your views but only if you discuss.

I am not ranting and I definetely have furnished by posts with logical proofs and links to substantiate what I have said and what our prophet have said.And I will continue to do it .

You stated that I could not find attorcities committed by Sikhs or Hindu's and without even looking up attrocities by followers of either religion I could name these two. You also stated Christians didn't commit attrocities and I refrained from talking about the miriad of attrocities committed in the name of G-d by Christians. I was merely trying to demonstrate a point, people do not blame all Sikhs or Hindus for these murders so why blame all Muslims for the attrocities committed by a tiny minority?.

I dont think I have stated christians didnt commit atrocities.

And I have also not blamed all muslims for the atrocities committed by islamic fundamentalists , and who definetely are not a tiny minority.I have only blamed islamic terrorists who are there all over the world.

I was atonished at this comment. So a young Sikh with an AK47 is misguided and a young Muslim with an AK47 is what?........the correct answer is misguided. The men we must blame for all attrocities by all religious groups are the teachers/corrupters of these young people.?.

Sikh misguided youth are a few, and that is why sikh militancy was crushed within a few years, and there is no sikh terrorism at all in the world, unlike islamic terrorism which has been there since the 7th century A.D. Also these youths were trained and equipped by the pakistani ISI , which also trained and equipped the TALIBAN (they sure are very noble).

If the pakistani ISI didnt train these sikh youths, there would not have been any sikh terrorism in the first place.

You say we must stop these people. I am watching the news as I type and Saudi Arabia has arrested over 100 extremists (some of whom were being trained as pilots) and taken their weapons..?.

Yeah sure, we all know that the monarchy in saudi arabia is threatened by islamic fundamentalists who want to abolish the monarchy. And this is the reason why extremists who are opposed to the monarchy is hunted down by the saudi arabian police. Plus some orders from Bush also would helped.

Kanwar Pal Singh Gill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Thanks for bringing this up. K.P.S.Gill is a good role model for everyone who is trying to crush terrorism.

He was also convicted by Indian courts for sexual misconduct - an incident when he misbehaved with a woman IAS officer ( Rupen Deol) during a party.
.

Yeah I too have read about this, and he was under the influence of alcohol and arrested as well, and i think he himself have apologised for this and served a minor term. Anyway this slight flaw does not in anyway undo the heroic work he had done to destroy sikh militancy within a short span of time, and bringing justice to the hindu and sikh innocents who were slaughtered by sikh militants with the weapons they have procured from Pakistan.

This is from the second site I opened (I chose this site as it is called sikhwiki so I thought it would be appropriate):

KPS Gill - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia.

The widow of murdered Punjab-based human rights activist Jaswant singh khalra said former Punjab Director General of Police K.P.S. Gill, also known as the "Butcher of Punjab" should be tried as a war criminal for genocide of Sikhs in a world court for massive killings that occurred in Punjab under his command and that of the central government of India.
Paramjit Kaur Khalra - who has been leading the fight for justice following the kidnapping and murder of her husband in September 1995 - told a media gathering in Surrey that she thinks the only way the victims - which number well above 25,000 people - can get justice is if criminal cops like Gill and others are tried in a world court like other war criminals from Europe, Africa and Central America.

This is a large and interesting article, although I hardly think it helps your side of the discussion.
.

Yeah sure. sikh wiki encycopedia is a propaganda machine of the sikh extremists, and they are the only ones who call K.P.S.Gill as the 'butcher of punjab' and the other numerous and valiant sikhs who destroyed sikh terrorism in Punjab.

It is a fact that sikh terrorists , with the weapons and training they got from islamic pakistan , killed many innocent sikh and hindu civilians, women and children. The government in punjab was paralysed and demoralised by these sikh militants. And it is in this regard that KPS GILL and others came to the scene and crushed sikh terrorism .


Papers from the Indian Defence Review


Sikh Terrorism

Total civilian deaths in Punjab have declined more than 95 percent since more than 3,300 civilians died in 1991. The drop results largely from Indian Army, paramilitary, and police successes against extremist groups.

It is my understanding that thousands of sikhs were massacred by hindus in the 1984 riots?.

3000 sikhs were killed by marauding congress hooligans after the death of Indira Gandhi. And congress activists is not made up of just hindus, but muslims and christians as well. In fact it is the muslims who support the congress rather than the hindus who abhor them.

Also many sikhs were protected by the hindu nationalist parties BJP and RSS.

Khushwant Singh expressed his gratitude to the Hindus when saying:“It was the Congress leaders who instigated mobs in 1984 and got more than 3000 people killed. I must give due credit to RSS and the BJP for showing courage and protecting helpless Sikhs during those difficult days. BJP party leader Atal Bihari Vajpayee himself intervened at a couple of places to help poor taxi drivers.”

I agree completely that there are many faiths in the world that commit themselves to non-violence but to include sikhs and hindus in that list is rather insulting - look......?.

And why not , non-violence has been taught in our scriptures , and has been emphasized by Krishna and guru nanak. Violence is allowed only for a righteous cause and self-defence when all options have been exhausted. The hindus and the sikhs never indulged in offensive warfare against other countries unlike, the muslim fundamentalists who engaged in offensive warfare against asia, africa and europe and slaughtered , tortured and raped countless millions.

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]4 April 1999 [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Breaking the shackles [SIZE=+0]- Kalpana Sharma (The Hindu Magazine)[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]On March 8th, the International Women's Day, around 400 women in a village in Karnataka had gathered. All these women (mainly Dalits) are participating in empowerment and literacy programs.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Thus far the Dalit women had to do all kinds of practices, because of them being a Dalit.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]'Our young daughters had to sit on the laps of the Gowdas (upper caste men) in our villages and remove with their mouth the money the men were clenching between their teeth'.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]An old men in our villageraped and eight-year old Harijan (Dalit) girl, because he had been told by the government doctor that he would be cured of a sexually transmitted disease in this way'.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]'The Gowdas would taunt us and say that even if we educated our daughters, who would give them a job? Better send them to us'.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]In the women groups, the women were made believe that they have the power to change the circumstances into which they were born. Through the women groups they were able to stop sitations like the above mentioned.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]This can be considered to be representing a virtual social revolution. The women are initiating tremendous important steps. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]The Hindu Group of Publications : Home Page[/SIZE][/FONT]

I have never heard of such stuff in India. The caste system was banned in India 60 years back and we have had dalit ministers, chief ministers, MPs, MLAs, and a dalit president as well in K.R. Narayan.
The same with the shudra castes as well, from which i hail from.

The caste system is not sanctioned by the vedas , which proclaims the equality of all human beings. This is the reason why the arya samaj, the hindu organization based on the vedas, are promoting intercaste marriages ,which are rampant in India, and growing exponentially. This is also being done by other hindu organizations as well.

The caste system is just like the feudal system that existed in Europe and Japan and other countries , and its time has come in India as well.

There are many dalits and shudras and OBCs in the RSS and BJP, and Govindacharya the secretary general of the BJP, Narendra modi, the chief minister of gujarat, and uma bharati , the former BJP chief minister of madhya pradesh, and Kalyan Singh , the former BJP chief minister of uttar pradesh belongs to the lower castes. And there are many of them as well.

Caste discrimination is prohibited in the RSS, the hindu nationalist party.

I know of many dalit men themselves who have married uppercaste women with the sanction of their families in marriages conducted by these uppercaste families.

What has been written above is not at all sanctioned by the hindu scriptures which hold women and girls as the manifestation of the divine mother on earth. It is also a major criminal offence in India, banned by the Indian constitution and the culprits can be arrested. And culprits have been arrested for even much minor issues of caste discrimination in India.
Also the fact that this was said by a hindu website tells a lot.

Here you have mass murder and rape of young girls and old women by Hindus:

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]12 March 1999 [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica]A history of [SIZE=+0]massacres[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=+0] - Venkitesh Ramakrishnan (Frontline)[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]In the period of 1990 - 1999, 35 instances of caste-based massacres took place. In total 400 persons were killed, of which more than 350 were from among the lower castes (Dalits). [/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]The number of attacks against Dalits and other lower-caste people has gone up every time a backward caste leader rose to power. Nearly all of the atrocities have been done by the private army of landlords, the Ranvir Sena. [/SIZE][/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]They did not only kill around 200 people in the last 5 years, they also participated in the conduction of the 'mass rape' campaign. In this campaign 200 Dalit women between 6 and 70 years old were raped (in 1992).[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]In the end the Ranvir Sena boosts on their actions - they learn the Dalits a lesson, that if they tried to take on the landlords the women of their communities will be humiliated[/SIZE][/FONT]​

Or do these people not count because they are from a poor caste?

As I said before, rape is not sanctioned in the hindu scriptures, including against the women of other religions , unlike the islamic scriptures.

These uppercaste guys , at those times , were indulging in some kind of tribal warfare against the lower castes, as they feel threatened by their sheer majority and political influence . And this has been condemned by hindu spiritual organisations as well.

You have to understand that this above incident happened in Bihar, which in itself is ruled by a dalit chief minister Laloo prasad yadav and his henchmen.
Our newspapers constantly criticizes the law and order in Bihar, and the vast corruption in Bihar as well, which is pretty bad in those times and laloo is a laughing stock in India now, due to his pathetic governance in Bihar.

And it is a fact that bihar is the most backward state in India.

These uppercaste guys , at those times , were indulging in some kind of tribal warfare against the lower castes, as they feel threatened by their sheer majority and political influence . And many of them have been arrested by the police as well.

These incidents lead to Bihar being under presidents rule for some time, which lead to improvement in law and order.

Now it is being ruled by the NDA, and again there is vast improvement in law and order,and this has been stated by my bihari friends as well.

Also the rapidly improving economy of India is enabling better judiciary, and modernised police forces, which will also substantially improve the law and order in Bihar.