Female circumcision

I dunno MW, this FGM thing is just the nasty tip of the iceberg when it comes to subjugating women. Speaking only for myself, I am very glad not to have any affiliation with a patriarchal milieu which promotes the subservience of women. I intend that my daughters enjoy freedom of sexuality and expression. How can they be reasonably expected to learn respect for themselves and their bodies if they are denied the freedom to own their own bodies and selves?

I think I will forgo the extended rant and just leave it there.

Chris
 
MW...I think the most intellectually bankrupt phrase in the above that jumped out at me was " ...there will be no physical drive for the women, only an emotional one;". The last time I checked Masters and Johnson, it is impossible for anybody to have one without the other in a fulfilling sexual episode. That is, of course, unless one or both of the partners are brain dead... Ugh!

I'm with Tao on this situation as it may personally involve you, take it slow and easy. Your friends here care about you and your welfare my dear.

flow....:cool:
 
flowperson said:
MW...I think the most intellectually bankrupt phrase in the above that jumped out at me was " ...there will be no physical drive for the women, only an emotional one;". The last time I checked Masters and Johnson, it is impossible for anybody to have one without the other in a fulfilling sexual episode. That is, of course, unless one or both of the partners are brain dead... Ugh!

I'm with Tao on this situation as it may personally involve you, take it slow and easy. Your friends here care about you and your welfare my dear.

flow....:cool:
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Thank you both Flow and TE and I do understand your anger Chris, even if we disagree on what daughters should be free to do.

Something else I find offensive is that when I ask young men here why they prefer european wives one of the reasons is always because "they are in tact and can enjoy sex". Yet these same young men will no doubt marry Egyptian women and grow up to follow the tradition and do this to their daughters.

There are so many cultural issues here I have learned to accept and some I even prefer to our western ones but as TE said, this may be beyond my flexibility. What I find really scary is, as I have said I am back in the UK now for a while, if I was still at home I may not have even heard of this ban.

I am so touched that you are worried about me, the worst that could happen is that I get divorced and return to my family in UK. I feel really guilty now because Egypt is a wonderful country and I love the people, so I don't want to paint them in a bad light. They just have this barbaric issue, which to them is anything but barbaric, they feel unable to let go of but nothing on G-d's green earth is going to make me accept it or even sit back quietly and mentally disapprove.
 
Muslimwoman said:
I managed to find the email posted on the internet that is said to be from an African man defending female circumcision, I puts some bits in bold that I found particularly offensive - hope you have a strong stomach:

Why should this be? Circumcision has been popular among African women for many thousands of years. Western pressure groups attempt to blackmail African nations into banning the custom, but whenever moves are made to do this, the streets are filled with happy circumcised women demonstrating their desire to protect their daughters' right to enjoy the same benefits.


Here are some of the most obvious things that a girl gains when she is circumcised:

* it is a rite of passage and proof of adulthood. One day she is a girl; the next, a woman;

* it raises her status in her community, both because of the added purity that circumcision brings and the bravery that initiates are called upon to show;

* it confers maturity and inculcates positive character traits, including the ability to endure pain and a submissive nature;

* the circumcision ritual is an enjoyable one, in which the girl is the centre of attention and receives presents and moral instruction from her elders; Oh hell I'll have my clitoris cut out for a few pressies

* it creates a bond between the generations, as all women in that society must undergo it and thus have shared an important experience;

* the girl will never have her conscience troubled by lustful thoughts or sensations or temptations such as masturbation;

* there is little or no risk of premarital relationships which end in heartbreak or the stigma and social difficulties of illegitimate birth (this is especially so with full circumcision, i.e. all impure tissue is removed and the girl is sewn up until her wedding night);

* the bond between husband and wife is closer because neither will have had sex with anyone else and the relationship will be motivated by love rather than primarily lust, because there will be no physical drive for the women, only an emotional one;

* there is no incentive for extramarital sex, hence marriages are made more secure;

* there will be far fewer rapes (especially in the case of full circumcision);

* marriages are also made closer because the emphasis is taken away from sexual technique and performance; that's the ticket, cut your girls bits off so you don't have to make any effort in the sex department

* children are better cared-for because there is less incentive for a marriage to break up, and because the husband can be more confident that the children are his.

There are many ills in today's Western society which could easily be eradicated by the adoption of universal female circumcision with infibulation at puberty. Think of the positive impact on the teenage pregnancy rate in the US, which has been linked to the rise of crime and ghettoisation, especially for minorities. And it would create more peaceful, satisfied women - at the moment females are told that this little nub of skin, a vestigial penis, should have awesome phallic power. For most of them, it just doesn't, which creates dissatisfaction. because you cut the bloody thing out perhaps?
So, in answer to the question on your website: yes, I do believe that the girl in the picture should be circumcised. It will do her good, and she will thank you for it.


Now this is clearly quite an educated person, as his use of the english language is rather good, yet he actually believes this S**T. The world is mad - I rest my case.
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Is it just me, or do these arguments sound eerily similar to those for spaying/neutering your pet, while retaining the pet's ability to be bred? Are women human beings, or are they considered to be animals/pets/breeding machines? :(
 
* it confers maturity and inculcates positive character traits, including the ability to endure pain and a submissive nature;
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Going off on a close tangent here. This makes me think of the prevalent child psychology of the nineteenth century. It was very strict and ever so cold and mechanical, but it was considered cutting edge modern and scientific in the day. Children have always had a bugger of a time, though. What caught my eye was the thing about learning to endure pain. There is a current of thought among the kiddie shrinks of the nineteenth century that children needed to be subjected to a program of disciplinary self-denial. Maybe this was to toughen them up for a hard life in the mills. Maybe it was just some weird kind of Calvinist self-mortification. I know I got whipped a lot "for my own good" coming up! And I know that came directly from the past through my dad's hand via the belt.

I think this idea of beating kids and and denying them their sexuality is an interesting thing to look at if one can but get around one's own self defense mechanisms and programming. It's an interesting self perpetuating mechanism by which the perceived sins of the flesh reinforce and sustain the fetishism which creates the dangerous aberration of our natural sexuality in the first place.

I guess that went a bit further than a close tangent.

Chris
 
MW, I have heard of this before from a previous thread here before you joined C-R. I don't remember the name of it or anything. I couldn't believe it then, and so I went searching and my heart just sank to find out how prevalent it is.

I have no doubt that if someone had tried to do that to me, my daddy would have personally seen to their demise! Like you, I believe he would have been willing to die first.

Why on earth would a man rather have a woman who can never be attracted to him in this intimate way? What a blessing these men are missing, especially in the case of a chaste woman who has kept herself this way by choice. Is it not akin to rape for a man to take a woman who does not really desire him? I guess not, if the woman agrees, but these girls don't have any choice. It's one thing for an adult to make these sort of choices, even if I can't fathom such, but it is nothing but slavery to do this to a child.

I keep trying to find the words I want to say, but they won't come to me. I'm holding your niece in my heart and lifting her up in prayer, and your sister-in-law, too. And you, too, by the way--sometimes I worry about you. I'm afraid you will say the wrong thing to the wrong person and attract trouble to yourself. But I do admire you for speaking out. It can't be an easy thing to do.

Salaam, dear MW

InPeace,
InLove
 
Muslimwoman said:
Something else I find offensive is that when I ask young men here why they prefer european wives one of the reasons is always because "they are in tact and can enjoy sex". Yet these same young men will no doubt marry Egyptian women and grow up to follow the tradition and do this to their daughters.
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You won't believe what I can hear at times : "Yeah, European women. They're good for having fun when you're young. But once you want to settle down, get serious, you have to marry a nice, local, Arabic girl. Because you know how these Europeans, they're mostly sluts. You don't want to marry a woman who has had sex with other men... what about your honor?"

And guess what? These are not the words of elderly stuck-up-living-in-another-age people. These are the words of my friends who are supposed to know better.

* the bond between husband and wife is closer because neither will have had sex with anyone else
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I'd laugh if it wasn't so mind-numbingly stupid. Because everyone knows that the girl needs to be mutilated so as not to have sex before marriage, whereas the guy doesn't need any help and will, without a doubt, stay a virgin until he gets married... Because men, they tend to same themselves for marriage... :rolleyes:

Honestly, MW, even I have a hard time comprehending most of these "cultural" (eugh) traits... and I'm supposed to be used to it. I have no idea how you can put up with it, it must be very, very hard.
 
With all our western attitude and platitudes about what we consider human rights violations and aberrant behavior, we are truly quite hypocritical on these issues.

I am no cultural anthropologist but seems to me that in most parts of the world a raise in consciousness in this regard came after some economic parity, increase in education and a general rise for most of the population on Maslow's hierarchy.

We are two centuries into freedom 1.5 into the abolishment of slavery, 1 in women's right to vote, barely .5 in civil rights...ie all people are created equal...

In the overall scheme of things we are just like an ex-smoker who has only quit for a month telling everyone else they oughta ban smoking everywhere, despite the fact that we were adamant supporters of the negative behavior just recently.

While it all is awful and something should be done....I think it is like supplying water to the desert by pouring it into the sand...first we need to provide the cups, and cisterns, and pipelines (build steps up maslow's hierarchy)
 
Muslimwoman said:
For those who do not know 97% of girls in Egypt (from all faiths and indeed no faith) have their clitoris removed before they begin menstruation.
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What? How? I mean..... *pause*

How do they have it removed? Who FORCES that?... Like if some Jew(or perhaps other religious person) came up to me and said oh circumcision time, I'd just give him a back hand.... If you are not part of some religious faith and you don't buy into it, why the hell would you have a circumcision formed? And it is kinda different to a male circumcision, that only removes skin.... What you are removing is surley classed as a nerve end?
 
That's the point, 17th (what's short for your nick? 17th or Angel? or none? :p). It's not faith, it's tradition. It has nothing to do with religion. Stupidity pretty much ignores religious boundaries.

Wil, should the guy who just recently stopped smoking refrain from telling others to stop too, just because he was wrong in the past? This isn't about being eurocentric and priggish. It's about basic common sense. Poverty and misery aren't excuses for barbarity.
 
wil said:
With all our western attitude and platitudes about what we consider human rights violations and aberrant behavior, we are truly quite hypocritical on these issues.

I am no cultural anthropologist but seems to me that in most parts of the world a raise in consciousness in this regard came after some economic parity, increase in education and a general rise for most of the population on Maslow's hierarchy.

We are two centuries into freedom 1.5 into the abolishment of slavery, 1 in women's right to vote, barely .5 in civil rights...ie all people are created equal...

In the overall scheme of things we are just like an ex-smoker who has only quit for a month telling everyone else they oughta ban smoking everywhere, despite the fact that we were adamant supporters of the negative behavior just recently.

While it all is awful and something should be done....I think it is like supplying water to the desert by pouring it into the sand...first we need to provide the cups, and cisterns, and pipelines (build steps up maslow's hierarchy)
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Interesting thoughts, especially the conclusion.

When I was in Kenya a few years ago female circumcision, or Female Genital Mutilation as it was known was a big issue. It was far from the norm but was not uncommon in the more remote areas.
Thanks to radio, school, church, and NGO campaigns howver, the practice, including its barbarity was being highlighted, and was in the decline.
 
KarimK said:
That's the point, 17th (what's short for your nick? 17th or Angel? or none? :p). It's not faith, it's tradition. It has nothing to do with religion. Stupidity pretty much ignores religious boundaries.

Wil, should the guy who just recently stopped smoking refrain from telling others to stop too, just because he was wrong in the past? This isn't about being eurocentric and priggish. It's about basic common sense. Poverty and misery aren't excuses for barbarity.
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17 or 17th is fine.. :)

Traditions, are not always a good things indeed... But then again, religion to some can be seen as tradition...
 
KarimK said:
Wil, should the guy who just recently stopped smoking refrain from telling others to stop too, just because he was wrong in the past? This isn't about being eurocentric and priggish. It's about basic common sense. Poverty and misery aren't excuses for barbarity.
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No but as described in Cav's post what got the smoker to quit was probably education. Telling others to stop never works...giving them reason to, making them understand the benefit.

What are the good excuses for barbarity?? The west still needs a few.
 
gosh, i had no idea tantawi was advocating this... or anything like the 97% figure in egypt... i am frankly appalled. i really sympathise with your situation MW and wish there was something i could do to help - perhaps there is an international association of ex-pat egyptians that knows about it and could raise it with, i don't know, the red crescent or something? which organisation has that sort of moral authority?

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
oh Lord Jesus what a heart breaking thing. God created us and created that part of a womans body for a reason .. In marriage sex is supposed to be pleasurable for the man and the woman that was a gift from God and these people are stealing that from these women :mad:. the tragedy of this is so horrific. This would be tatamount to removing the entire penis of a man.
 
17th Angel said:
What? How? I mean..... *pause*

How do they have it removed? Who FORCES that?... Like if some Jew(or perhaps other religious person) came up to me and said oh circumcision time, I'd just give him a back hand.... If you are not part of some religious faith and you don't buy into it, why the hell would you have a circumcision formed? And it is kinda different to a male circumcision, that only removes skin.... What you are removing is surley classed as a nerve end?
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Laregely it is done in the home or in a filthy kiosk in the street, using anything from razor blades, kitchen knives and even broken glass - anaesthetic, whats that? The parents force it, the girls are often not told (they tend to be 9 - 11 years), the poor things comes home from school and her mother and assorted female relatives grab her and out it comes. The mind just boggles. There is quite a degree of mistrust between daughter and mother from that point on as you can well imagine.


You won't believe what I can hear at times : "Yeah, European women. They're good for having fun when you're young. But once you want to settle down, get serious, you have to marry a nice, local, Arabic girl. Because you know how these Europeans, they're mostly sluts. You don't want to marry a woman who has had sex with other men... what about your honor?"
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Same here Karim, it is still the attitude of young trendy men. My husband is constantly told by his friends, that I am such a nice woman but when is he going to get divorced and get a PROPER wife. It is so insulting for both of us and just shows the ignorance that abounds here. Unfortunatley my husband has few friends now because he almost always lashes out when this is said to him, which is lovely for my honor but does nothing for his friendships. I do worry he will leave himself isolated.
 
wil said:
With all our western attitude and platitudes about what we consider human rights violations and aberrant behavior, we are truly quite hypocritical on these issues.

I am no cultural anthropologist but seems to me that in most parts of the world a raise in consciousness in this regard came after some economic parity, increase in education and a general rise for most of the population on Maslow's hierarchy.

We are two centuries into freedom 1.5 into the abolishment of slavery, 1 in women's right to vote, barely .5 in civil rights...ie all people are created equal...

In the overall scheme of things we are just like an ex-smoker who has only quit for a month telling everyone else they oughta ban smoking everywhere, despite the fact that we were adamant supporters of the negative behavior just recently.

While it all is awful and something should be done....I think it is like supplying water to the desert by pouring it into the sand...first we need to provide the cups, and cisterns, and pipelines (build steps up maslow's hierarchy)
Click to expand...

Good points Wil. As you can imagine this is a hot topic at the moment. The Egyptian medical body is suggesting to the government that an outright ban will in fact increase the likelihood of deaths by driving it underground, as it were, rather than stopping it. They want to get funding for an educational program but of course it will take years to change attitudes. I suppose it is still a good thing that everyone seems to be trying to do something at last but I do worry that it will be a flash in the pan and forgotten about next week when something else comes to the political agenda.
 
Faithfulservant said:
oh Lord Jesus what a heart breaking thing. God created us and created that part of a womans body for a reason .. In marriage sex is supposed to be pleasurable for the man and the woman that was a gift from God and these people are stealing that from these women :mad:. the tragedy of this is so horrific. This would be tatamount to removing the entire penis of a man.
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This is what makes me so angry Faithfulservant. The Quran states that we must not hurt ourselves, as our bodies belong to Allah, held in trust and will be resurrected for the next life. Most scholars tell us that tatooing and body peircing is not allowed because of this reason - so how do they reconcile mutilation????

gosh, i had no idea tantawi was advocating this... or anything like the 97% figure in egypt... i am frankly appalled. i really sympathise with your situation MW and wish there was something i could do to help - perhaps there is an international association of ex-pat egyptians that knows about it and could raise it with, i don't know, the red crescent or something? which organisation has that sort of moral authority?
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This is such a problem BB. The WHO and a German group have been working for years to try to stop this but are usually met with "we will not have european standards imposed upon us". So it becomes an issue about political control and the girls get forgetten in the struggle. Change is going to have to come from within, in order for it to be accepted. It is great news that the Grand Mufti has finally spoken out and said it is unIslamic. Whilst most think that he is the puppet of Mobarak (which may to an extent be true) he is 'the' religious authority here, so his fatwa is binding. My fingers are crossed that he will get support from other middle eastern Muslim countries now to quash the opinions of the supporters of this practice. I think a lot will depend on the line the Muslim Brotherhood and similar groups take, as to whether the people actually start to recognise it is an unIslamic practice.
 
InLove said:
sometimes I worry about you. I'm afraid you will say the wrong thing to the wrong person and attract trouble to yourself. But I do admire you for speaking out. It can't be an easy thing to do.
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Please don't worry about me, the worst they could do is kill me (not very bloody likely, more likely to just think of me as a typical european slut) and if they do kill me I will know I died trying to defend Allah and His true teaching. I do wonder what these people are going to say to Allah on the Day of Judgement in their defense?!

Salaam
 
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