Why the Palestinians fight

Muslimwoman

Muslimwoman

Coexistence insha'Allah
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I live just outside Annapolis, MD. Today Syria, Israel, Hamas, Russia, England, and more sent leaders to discuss peace in the middle east. And huzzah, for the umpteempth time in my life they've vowed to create a treaty, at some point over a year from now.

Meanwhile in this world, these videos that MW posted Hamas, behind the mask, Part 1- 543 views, Part 2- 314 views, Part 3- 216 views. The world may feign concern over the conflict in the middle east, but the fact that comedic videos, or videos of someone getting hit in the crotch get hundreds of thousands of views is a true indication of our apathy in this regard.

Thank you for posting. I can't say I understand, I can't understand a woman who writes to the leader requesting her 17 year old son be chosen for a suicide mission. But at the same time, I can understand, if me and 750,000 others were forced from our homes, to live next to a concrete wall, I would probably plot for decades to return home.

Whatever your opinion of the conflict, I'd love to hear your opinion of these videos. And if you deem them biased in some way and wish to provide us with another side, post it. While these videos are troubling, they are not graphic, my 14 year olds watched them with me...the second time.
 
Today Syria, Israel, Hamas, Russia, England, and more sent leaders to discuss peace in the middle east.
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WRONG. Hamas sent tens of thousands into the street to protest against the very idea of peace.
 
bob x said:
I have not been able to get them to load on any of the computers I have access to.
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What I do when I am on a slow connection is start the videos and then put them on pause. It continues to load while you are doing other things and then when it completes you can watch them without interruption. I would think you especially would be interested in this, I hear your passion about feeling ostracized and oppressed and lack of freedom and rights, I would expect that you would empathize with Hamas and the Palestinians after seeing this.

It is truly a quagmire, I see the issues on both sides. Nothing was obviously solved when Israel was formed, that was the day extended conflict was created. The majority of the world gave people land, they accepted it, and now decades later these families feel it home, while others do as well.
 
Hi Guys

I in no way agree with their tactics of targeting civilians but I do think the videos show another side, that we rarely see in the West.

It is easy for us to sit in our safe homes and say 'I would do this or that if I lived there' but let's be honest unless you grow up with it you really have no idea how you would turn out or react. I cannot image the level of hatred someone would have to have in order to kiss their son and send them on a suicide mission (knowing suicide is forbidden) but watching those vidoes does give me a sense of why their minds head in that direction - hopelessness.

Of course there is the Israeli side of the story and I was astonished today to watch a video of an Israeli peace protester being shot in the back of the head with a ruer bullet - it seems their army have no respect for any life, Israeli or Arab.


I thought Hamas were not invited to the talks? I also understand there have been protests on both sides against the peace talks?
 
Muslimwoman said:
I thought Hamas were not invited to the talks? I also understand there have been protests on both sides against the peace talks?
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They aren't invited? Shouldn't they be the key players in peace?...

It sounds like it is going to be more of a peace monologue...
 
madeinrussia89 said:
They aren't invited? Shouldn't they be the key players in peace?...
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Of course they were not invited, the US refuses to hold any talks with them, even though they were democratically elected.

The US paid money to Fatah prior to the elections to stop Hamas winning, once the Palestinians found out about this it was a given that Hamas would win the election (so the US had a great hand in getting them elected).

The refusal to invite them into the peace talks gave Hamas an amazing PR opportunity to shout about how Mahmoud Abbas is a US puppet and will try to sell the Palestinians out in order to get US support for Fatah (a very corrupt party). So the refusal to talk to Hamas is creating new terrorists by the day.

A couple of months ago Hamas were making slight noises toward a two state solution. This week they have gone back to screaming about 'not giving an inch of land' and 'getting Jews off all their land'. We have in fact gone backwards.

Thank you Mr Bush, much appreciated ;)

madeinrussia89 said:
It sounds like it is going to be more of a peace monologue...
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Until they are prepared to bring Hamas into the discussions there can be no workable peace plan. The UK learnt that the hard way with the IRA.
 
This " we will not talk with terrorists " bs needs to stop. And you'd think this president would learn if not from mistakes in the history of this nation, but from the very recent mistakes of other countries (like Russia in Chechnya) but no. Deeper and deeper into the quicksand again.

Hamas was elected more democratically than George Bush! Hah! Wonderful.
 
Time and some sincerity.

The PLO and Arafat were ignored for years, then finally the US realized that they needed to be in the talks for a lasting solution. Unfortunately by then the Palestinians didn't believe that.

There could be an issue that anyone that goes to the talks or talks peace is all of a sudden a traitor the cause. The cause being to eliminate Israel.

What is hardest for me to comprehend is the growth of the refugees. They've been oppressed, killed, their young men are killing themselves for the cause, yet they've grown from less than a million to 4 million during the same time. The United States hasn't had that population explosion and we have immigrants (legal and illegal) coming in all the time.
 
Thanks MW for the links.

It seems obvious, to me anyway, that neither Israel nor the US want peace there. Its too good an excuse to stay armed to the teeth.

Tao
 
I can understand, if me and 750,000 others were forced from our homes, to live next to a concrete wall, I would probably plot for decades to return home.
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This is what I just can't understand. About 500,000 Jews were forced from their homes in the other direction, and while some of them may still have nostalgia for the old Iraq, they haven't been plotting for decades to return; 2 million Germans were forced from their homes just 3 years earlier, and that's all been forgotten; about 10 million Chinese were forced from their homes right at the same time as the 1948 war, and while they did plot for decades to return, that's all been given up, and really it didn't take long for the supposed plan to retake the mainland to become just a theoretical and not a genuine aspiration.
The Palestinians act like no other nation in the history of the world had ever lost territory in a war before.
A couple of months ago Hamas were making slight noises toward a two state solution.
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I missed the "slight noises", could you clarify what you are referring to? In any case, it is way way too late for anything short of an unequivocal commitment.
Until they are prepared to bring Hamas into the discussions there can be no workable peace plan. The UK learnt that the hard way with the IRA.
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It only became useful to talk to the IRA once the Irish Catholic community had come to accept (most of them, anyhow) that a British withdrawal and unification of Ulster with the Republic was never ever going to happen. There would have been no point in trying to talk to the IRA in, say, 1980.
Similarly, there never was any point in talking to Arafat (I thought the recent "commemoration" of him was very fitting, in a black-humor sort of way: Hamas said they started shooting only because Fatah shot first, but Fatah says the Hamas officers started shooting because children were throwing rocks at them, while the adults were calling them bad names, like "Shi'ite").
they've grown from less than a million to 4 million
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There is a special branch of the UN entirely devoted to giving "welfare" to Palestinian refugees (separate from the administration that deals with all other refugees); of course the money is just enough to keep them on the edge of starvation, but it increases if they have more kids. This creates the usual perverse incentive to engage in no productive economics, but instead have a lot of children that other people are expected to support.
 
bob x said:
The Palestinians act like no other nation in the history of the world had ever lost territory in a war before..
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And are you somehow saying it is uncommon for folks to want or fight to get their land back? I'm pretty much a vagabond and drifter, if I were in New Orleans I wouldn't hesitate to find a life someplace else. However that doesn't mean I can't imagine some folks who had lived in a location for generations feel a commitment to the land.
 
i appreciate some people just can't accept that the israelis would do anything in good faith - perhaps they ought to question the palestinians a bit more closely when fatah (not even hamas) are saying one thing in annapolis and another to their own constituency - DURING the conference:

PMW - Latest Bulletins

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
And are you somehow saying it is uncommon for folks to want or fight to get their land back?
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I wouldn't really dignify what the Palestinians have been doing as "fighting": randomly killing people on the other side doesn't actually accomplish that.
It is not unusual for countries which have lost wars to arm themselves and try to reverse the war's outcome, look at Germany after 1918, but neither is it unusual for a nation to accept that the war is lost, look at Germany after 1945; or to try it for a while and then give up, look at Taiwan after 1949.
 
bob x said:
I wouldn't really dignify what the Palestinians have been doing as "fighting": randomly killing people on the other side doesn't actually accomplish that.
It is not unusual for countries which have lost wars to arm themselves and try to reverse the war's outcome, look at Germany after 1918, but neither is it unusual for a nation to accept that the war is lost, look at Germany after 1945; or to try it for a while and then give up, look at Taiwan after 1949.
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Here you go again with your crass bias. Germany did not lose Germany. Taiwan is Taiwan. Palestine is Israel. So what you talking about.
You are a smart guy Bob. I often like and agree with what you say but on this issue your prejudice is so overt as to be laughable.

Tao
 
This makes rather grim reading but very interesting:

Annapolis: Broken peace process | Spero News

This part made me stop and thing:

The prospects of progress growing out of the Annapolis meeting is made all the less likely due to Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert’s insistence, backed by the U.S. Congress, that the Palestinians, despite having formally recognized Israel, also recognize Israel as a “Jewish state” before substantive issues can be negotiated. Given the sizable Palestinian minority in Israel and concerns that it would legitimate past and future Israeli efforts at ethnic cleansing, this demand is something that the Palestinian government could never agree to and appears to be designed to prevent the peace process from moving forward.
 
Germany did not lose Germany.
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100% of Germany became "occupied territories", initially with a heavier footprint of foreign troops than Gaza and the West Bank have ever experienced. 30% of Germany's territory was taken away permanently (proportionally comparable to what Palestine lost in 1948) with the displacement of 2 million from their homes: you don't hear much about them because they resettled decades ago; Germans, unlike Arabs, take care of their own. Germany regained independence because, of course, the Germans did not take up habits like murdering every American, English, French, or Russian civilian they could manage to kill, or training their children to throw rocks at the soldiers, or vowing to fight forever until the outcome of 1945 was reversed, or refusing to accept any independent Germany that did not hold every square inch that had been in the Third Reich.
To be sure, the Americans and British did make plain from the start their intent to restore self-governance as quickly as possible. However, the Russian occupation continued for slightly longer than the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza so far has. Would Gorbachev have withdrawn if the Germans had been killing Russians all those decades, and were continuing to demand the return of Koenigsberg/Kaliningrad? I think not.
Muslimwoman: should the Germans be required to formally recognize that Silesia, Pomerania, and Prussia are "Polish lands", even though there are still some Germans living there? Would that be an outrageous thing to ask? Willi Brandt did not think so: he gave that recognition way back in the 1960's; that is why Poland made no fuss about German reunification.
Taiwan is Taiwan.
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??? You seem to be under some mistaken impression that a separate country called "Taiwan" existed before 1949, and continued to be what it had been. The millions of Chinese who were expelled from the mainland had had no connection to the island before: they lost their homeland, totally, and are never getting it back; they took over someone else's home instead. Of the people who had been on the island (formerly the Japanese province of "Formosa") before: the Japanese-speakers were all expelled (lost their homes, are never getting them back); the Aborigines were almost completely exterminated (less than 1% of the population now); and the Chinese-speakers descended from the 17th-19th century settlers (about 80% of the population) were given no voice in the governance of their home for four decades.
 
Bob you love Israel so much why dont you go live there?

Thanks for the history lesson on Taiwan/Formosa.

The allies following the fall of Berlin did not force out Germans and import another people. Trying to compare what happened in Germany with what happened in Palestine is maybe meat for your own prejudices but that is all I can see. Bob ranting on his pro-Israeli bigotry again. Whatever I say is wasted.. You are a broken record of the poorest quality, a fascist, exterminationist, muslim hating bigot. So wheres the point?

Tao
 
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