Can we bargain with God ?

soleil10 said:
There are many `Ifs `in the Bible. God is telling the chosen people what
would happen if they do this or this ? There are many other examples of
secondary course throughout the bible due to the faithleness of the
people. For instance the Babylonian captivity was a secondary course.

In several occasions God does not carry his announced plan;
2 Kings 20:1-6 God instructs Isaiah to tell Hezekiah he will not recover
from his sickness and will die. Hezekiah prays with tears. God relents and adds 15 years to his life.

Jonah: God tell Jonah to tell the people of Nineveh that they will be
destroyed in 40 days. The people repent and God does not destroy Nineveh.

Matthew 11:23 Jesus affirms that Sodom would not have been destroyed if` they had repented.



Genesis 6:6 The LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled.

God did not wish to have humankind suffer for thousand of years. God did not wish to be separated from his children.


Matt 11:23 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. [a] If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day.

Jesus does not agree with you as I mentioned above.



God's will does not change but the fufillment of God's will rest on man cooperation. We can see this over and over in the bible. Man has free will because true love requires it. When Abraham fail in the first sacrifice of animals, he has to do it again later with his own son as sacrifice. He did succeed the second time

This idea that God is always in control and men are puppets and it does not matter what they do is in total contradiction with the bible. It does not mean that God will change his purpose and will for us. He needs our cooperation.
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It is not ture that God needs our coropration on anything. if that was so He would not be "God. I dont know if you realize or not but you seemed to relate Gods ways and means to the ways and thinking of man. Gods fufillment of Gos will rest on mans coopration (you got to be joking)

No0 Gpd does not wish for man to suffer. It is a nesseray evil. all is done according to the purpose of God. There is a reason for us suffering.

God told Jonah if the people did not repent in Nineveh that He would destoryed them. God arleady knew that the people would repent. Jonah or God did not make them repent or change there ways they did not choose according to their free will. God knows the end from the befginning. One must believe these words in order for one to understand that know one does anything unless God has already chose them to do so. if someone did something that God did not know they would do before hand, then He wouuld not be God. Would He?

Just as Nineveh repented and the Lord knew they would before hand Sodom did not. God knew they would not before hand. God sends His prophets to tell them what will happen if they do not do as the Lord wishes in order that they know this word comes from the Lord. I know I said if they do not do as the Lord wishes, There is no contadiction here. The Lord either wishes (wills) them to follow the Lords instruction or not. Just as in Pharraos situation. The Lord told him to let His people go (right) but the Lord did not intend for him to let His people go at that moment. God harden his heart so that he would not let them go and the Lord would show the world that He was God. I said many times that Gods will for man and Gods intention for man are two different things.

So you are right when you speak of seconday plans that the Lord has. Thats what I mean when I speak of God's will for us is one thing and His intent for us is another. As you said with Hezekiah, Isaiah was instructed by God to tell him he will die of his sickness. Then God adds 15 yrs to his life. Gods will and His intentions. His will was for Isaiah to say what he said and Gods intention was to show that He was God and add yrs to his life/.

PS what did I say that Jesus disagrees with?

Darren
 
winner08 said:
It is not ture that God needs our coropration on anything. if that was so He would not be "God. I dont know if you realize or not but you seemed to relate Gods ways and means to the ways and thinking of man. Gods fufillment of Gos will rest on mans coopration (you got to be joking)

No0 Gpd does not wish for man to suffer. It is a nesseray evil. all is done according to the purpose of God. There is a reason for us suffering.

God told Jonah if the people did not repent in Nineveh that He would destoryed them. God arleady knew that the people would repent. Jonah or God did not make them repent or change there ways they did not choose according to their free will. God knows the end from the befginning. One must believe these words in order for one to understand that know one does anything unless God has already chose them to do so. if someone did something that God did not know they would do before hand, then He wouuld not be God. Would He?

Just as Nineveh repented and the Lord knew they would before hand Sodom did not. God knew they would not before hand. God sends His prophets to tell them what will happen if they do not do as the Lord wishes in order that they know this word comes from the Lord. I know I said if they do not do as the Lord wishes, There is no contadiction here. The Lord either wishes (wills) them to follow the Lords instruction or not. Just as in Pharraos situation. The Lord told him to let His people go (right) but the Lord did not intend for him to let His people go at that moment. God harden his heart so that he would not let them go and the Lord would show the world that He was God. I said many times that Gods will for man and Gods intention for man are two different things.

So you are right when you speak of seconday plans that the Lord has. Thats what I mean when I speak of God's will for us is one thing and His intent for us is another. As you said with Hezekiah, Isaiah was instructed by God to tell him he will die of his sickness. Then God adds 15 yrs to his life. Gods will and His intentions. His will was for Isaiah to say what he said and Gods intention was to show that He was God and add yrs to his life/.

PS what did I say that Jesus disagrees with?Darren
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Winner God wrote my post for me.How can you argue with it ? It was his will and his intention for me to write it. As you said "no one does anything unless God has already chose them to do so. if someone did something that God did not know they would do before hand, then He would not be God. Would He?"

By the way Hitler, Stalin and Saddam Hussein were all doing God's will.

That's a great God we have, don't we ?
 
soleil10 said:
Winner God wrote my post for me.How can you argue with it ? It was his will and his intention for me to write it. As you said "no one does anything unless God has already chose them to do so. if someone did something that God did not know they would do before hand, then He would not be God. Would He?"

By the way Hitler, Stalin and Saddam Hussein were all doing God's will.

That's a great God we have, don't we ?
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Who are we to know Gods plan? Yes Gods will is always done. Hitler, Stalin and Saddam are all part of Gods plan. Do we know why inocent children are born with killer diseases? Do we know why children are molested and killed. No we don't, I never said we don't make choices. that is Gods will when people go againts His will. But no one has ever went against God intention. Who are we to know why He chooses certain people to do terrible things. Take a look at the O.T. it is full of terrible slaughter. God instructs Isreal to kill men women children and animals. God instructed king saul to kill everyone and the animals and not leave one alive. Saul let a women live and disobayed God. the next battle Saul and His son died. So yes God uses satan (evil) for His divine purpose. It may be hard for us humans to understand. BTW God did not writ your post you did. you make your choices not God. Gods will for one is not the same as His intention for one. I never said that God choses for you. God gave you a brain so that you can make your choices. It just that God already knows what choices your gona make. Don't you think so??

Darren
 
winner08 said:
Who are we to know Gods plan? Yes Gods will is always done. Hitler, Stalin and Saddam are all part of Gods plan. Do we know why inocent children are born with killer diseases? Do we know why children are molested and killed. No we don't, I never said we don't make choices. that is Gods will when people go againts His will. But no one has ever went against God intention. Who are we to know why He chooses certain people to do terrible things. Take a look at the O.T. it is full of terrible slaughter. God instructs Isreal to kill men women children and animals. God instructed king saul to kill everyone and the animals and not leave one alive. Saul let a women live and disobayed God. the next battle Saul and His son died. So yes God uses satan (evil) for His divine purpose. It may be hard for us humans to understand. BTW God did not writ your post you did. you make your choices not God. Gods will for one is not the same as His intention for one. I never said that God choses for you. God gave you a brain so that you can make your choices. It just that God already knows what choices your gona make. Don't you think so??
Darren
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Your theory does not make any sense to me. It is an hopeless one and full of contradictions. I feel great confusion.
 
soleil10 said:
Your theory does not make any sense to me. It is an hopeless one and full of contradictions. I feel great confusion.
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He is attempting to say to you, is this.. I'll sum it up in a single sentence so you are not confused.....

Evil and suffering is the will of your god, and your "free will" is futile. (don't shoot the messenger... ;))

winner08 said:
So yes God uses satan (evil) for His divine purpose.
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Dear Darren,

It's dirty work, but someones got to do it (and take the fall for it too.) And the G man is an excellent judge of character eh? designating the most perfect employee to the task.

Keep the faith brother ;)
 
Alex P said:
He is attempting to say to you, is this.. I'll sum it up in a single sentence so you are not confused.....
Evil and suffering is the will of your god, and your "free will" is futile. (don't shoot the messenger... ;))
Dear Darren,
It's dirty work, but someones got to do it (and take the fall for it too.) And the G man is an excellent judge of character eh? designating the most perfect employee to the task.
Keep the faith brother ;)
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It is not helping at all. I believe the exact opposite.
 
I'm still having trouble understanding why anyone would want to bargain with God instead of just asking him for what they want or need.
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I think its our habit of observing a norm of reciprocity in social context. We define terms and expect others to keep their end of the deal based on the commitment we make. In a similar sense, bargaining with G-d is kinda like expressing commitment or rededication.

I that at some level it reflects a lack of faith. Why would one be motivated to manipulate G-d unless they don't have assurance of getting what they want?


I mean, Jesus is pretty clear on the fact that God cares and wants good things for us.
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Yeah, but we don't "get it."

I personally believe Grace makes bargaining efforts moot.
 
winner08 said:
Who are we to know Gods plan? Yes Gods will is always done. Hitler, Stalin and Saddam are all part of Gods plan. Do we know why inocent children are born with killer diseases? Do we know why children are molested and killed. No we don't, I never said we don't make choices. that is Gods will when people go againts His will. But no one has ever went against God intention. Who are we to know why He chooses certain people to do terrible things. Take a look at the O.T. it is full of terrible slaughter. God instructs Isreal to kill men women children and animals. God instructed king saul to kill everyone and the animals and not leave one alive. Saul let a women live and disobayed God. the next battle Saul and His son died. So yes God uses satan (evil) for His divine purpose. It may be hard for us humans to understand. BTW God did not writ your post you did. you make your choices not God. Gods will for one is not the same as His intention for one. I never said that God choses for you. God gave you a brain so that you can make your choices. It just that God already knows what choices your gona make. Don't you think so??

Darren
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It makes sense to me. God knows stuff, because he's really smart, yeah? And humans aren't so smart, so that sometimes make very poor choices. God knows the choices are poor, but he allows us to make them anyways because we have free will. God didn't instruct Hitler to wage war against the Jews, but he knew it was going to happen. Lots of bad things happen. Because there are lots of bad people. In the real world.
 
Alex P said:
He is attempting to say to you, is this.. I'll sum it up in a single sentence so you are not confused.....
Evil and suffering is the will of your god, and your "free will" is futile. (don't shoot the messenger... ;))
Dear Darren,
It's dirty work, but someones got to do it (and take the fall for it too.) And the G man is an excellent judge of character eh? designating the most perfect employee to the task.Keep the faith brother ;)
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Hitler, Stalin and Saddam are all part of Gods plan. I wish you and Marsh good luck with that one.

What a hopeful vision of God and his future plans for mankind
 
Netti-Netti said:
I think its our habit of observing a norm of reciprocity in social context. We define terms and expect others to keep their end of the deal based on the commitment we make. In a similar sense, bargaining with G-d is kinda like expressing commitment or rededication.

I that at some level it reflects a lack of faith. Why would one be motivated to manipulate G-d unless they don't have assurance of getting what they want?
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I think at every level the idea of bargaining with God reflects a lack of faith, just as it reflects a lack of faith between humans. Think about it: Would you bargain over a car if you thought you were getting a fair price? But that's an aside; the point I'd like to highlight is that bargaining with God basically equates to a feeble attempt to manipulate God into doing something that we want him to do. Personally, it has always put a sour taste in my mouth, and whenever I catch myself doing it I am quick to say something along the lines of, "Well, actually I'll do what I said I was going to do anyways, regardless, and just hope that you're watching out for me."
 
winner08 said:
Who are we to know Gods plan? Yes Gods will is always done. Hitler, Stalin and Saddam are all part of Gods plan. Do we know why inocent children are born with killer diseases? Do we know why children are molested and killed. No we don't, I never said we don't make choices. that is Gods will when people go againts His will. But no one has ever went against God intention. Who are we to know why He chooses certain people to do terrible things. Take a look at the O.T. it is full of terrible slaughter. God instructs Isreal to kill men women children and animals. God instructed king saul to kill everyone and the animals and not leave one alive. Saul let a women live and disobayed God. the next battle Saul and His son died. So yes God uses satan (evil) for His divine purpose. It may be hard for us humans to understand. BTW God did not writ your post you did. you make your choices not God. Gods will for one is not the same as His intention for one. I never said that God choses for you. God gave you a brain so that you can make your choices. It just that God already knows what choices your gona make. Don't you think so??

Darren
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I totally agree with, Darren. Actually, it takes time for one to digest this idea, and still seems hard for one to accept. Why? Simply because we dont know the full truth.


@ soleil10

I am going to give you a simple example Soleil. One day, a shop owner was standing at the door of his shop. There was a quarrel between 2 persons. One wanted to fire the other one, but he mistakened him, and the bullet eneterd the shop owner's heart and killed him.

People felt very sorry for the person, and they said" where is God's justice? Why this man was killed while he was wroking for his family and children?!

This is one chapter of the story. And here people's knowledge stop and that's why they felt sorry for him. That's all they know.And normally our reaction is up to our knowledge.

Now, let's me tell the other chapter of the story. That shop owner had a brother. That brother had died and left 3 children behind. The shop owner took all the proprieties of his brother, even his house and expelled his brother's children out of their house. The children and their mother resorted to the court. Yet, the shop owner bribed the court and won the case. A wise man advised the children and their mother to resort to God and complain to him about that unjust person. And you know the rest of the story.

A true believer believes that God is All Just, All Wise, All Strong, All Loving, and His will is always fulfilled and done. And because of this faith, a true believer always believe that there is a wisdom behind anything takes place in this earth.

There is no absolute evil because the presence of absolute evil contradicts with the presence of God.

Anything happens, it is God who wills it. And since God wills it , there is a wisdom behind it.

Let me repeat: It is because we know just a chapter of the whole story that we are unable to see the full picture and witness God's mercy and justice.
 
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