The Ark of the Covenant

Discussion in 'Judaism' started by iBrian, Jul 30, 2004.

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  1. dauer

    dauer Active Member

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    Prober,

    There is a somewhat extremist group doing that type of stuff, but generally Jews are both more sensitive to current political situations and more about leaving that type of stuff for God, that is, when the moshiach comes it'll happen. Even in the kabbalistic sense where the actions of the individual can hasten olam haba, the world to come, that's still making the emphasis on all actions, and not on things like building implements or thinking of ways to kick your neighbors off of ground that they too consider to be sacred and that they've had a place of worship on for quite some time now.

    The location of the holy of holies, however, afaik, we don't really know the exact location.

    Dauer

    Link to the borderline crazy folk who I hope don't decide to do something really crazy and start a war like the middle east has never seen, remove the space I inserted between temple and institute so I don't bump them up in google.

    http://www.temple institute.org/

    Dauer
     
  2. Prober

    Prober Give Us This Day...

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    Thanks, Dauer.

    I'm assuming Getz didn't actually find the Ark or (I assume) nothing would stop some people from retreiving it...

    I can only imagine the ruckus the whole thing would cause.

    Regards,
    Mark
     
  3. flowperson

    flowperson Oannes

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    There are some scholars that believe that Solomon's temple actually housed the tent/tabernacle first used in the desert at Shiloh.

    Quite a few people are of the opinion that the ark was taken to Africa after 70 ad and resides today in an orthodox chapel, St. Mary's, in Axum Ethiopia. Seen a couple of programs about it and read it in a few places also.

    As a final note, temples in ancient Sumer and Assyria also contained precints that would coincide with the concept of the holy of holies in the Hebrew tabernacle.

    flow....;)
     
  4. flowperson

    flowperson Oannes

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  5. pohaikawahine

    pohaikawahine Elder Member

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    Interesting that there are only 44 replies to this thread but over 2600 have stopped to read it or part of it .... the Ark of the Covenant continues to be something that draws people to try and understand it .... in my view it will be found when we rebuilt the temple and the Masiach returns .... all simultaneously? The Torah tells us the way, but it is hidden in the teachings.

    I just read a great excerpt from "The Essential Rabbi Nachman" translated by Avraham Greenbaum in "Why the Tzaddik tells stories" "Why does the Tzaddik tell stories? It's like when a doctor becomes sick and is forced to put himself in the hands of an outstanding expert. The Sick doctor wants to be given the kinds of simple treatments he understands, but the expert knows of unique cures. Similarly a person may come to the oustanding sage and Tzaddik of the generation, who is doctor of the ailments of the soul. The person wants the Tzaddik to give him medicines - spiritual pathways of the kind he understands. However the Tzaddik, has far more exalted medicines to administer.

    Sometimes it is necessary to give the patient a certain medicine, but if the patient takes it as it is he will surely die. The medicine in question must therefore be mixed in with other ingredients. Similarly, there are people to whom it is impossible to reveal the inner face of the Torah teachings which they need for their healing. For healing comes from the Torah: 'It will be health to your navel' (Proverbs 3:8). However, the Torah has two powers: it can either be an elixir of life or a fatal poison. For 'If a person is deserving, it becomes an elixir of life; if not, it becomes a fatal poison' (Yoma 72b)

    For this reason, if the person is given the teaching the way it is, he will certainly die, because for him, as one who is as yet unworthy, it would be a fatal poison. It is therefore necessary to clothe the inner face of the teaching within other Torah teachings in apparently mundane stories or conversations in order for the person to be able to receive the medicine hidden beneath the surface. For the Torah teaching itself is now clothed within stories and conversations, because it was impossible to administer it the way it really is." Likutey Moharan I, 164"

    So I believe it is the the many stories of the Ark of the Covenant .... the Ark is part of the elixir of life .... while I do not believe that any will "die" from not finding it, I do think that it is within the reach of each and every one of us when we remember what is is to live a "righteous" and balanced life in all that we do .... this is a very exciting time because it is closer than ever and the regathering and the rebuilding have already begun .... he hawai'i au, poh
     
  6. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    as salaam aleykum

    Please forgive my ignorance of the Jewish scriptures. The Ark of the Covenant is mentioned in the Quran at verse 2:248 and I have seen the film Raiders of the Lost Ark but my understanding ends there (red face). Some Islamic scholars believe that the Ark contains relics of the families of Moses and Aaron. Do Jewish scriptures say anything to suggest the Arks return? And what do people of the Jewish faith believe is contained in the Ark?

    Salaam
     
  7. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

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    to my knowledge, what was in the ark was:

    a) the second set of stone tablets
    b) the first, broken set of stone tablets
    c) the original manuscript of the Torah as written down by moses

    some also say:

    d) the rod of aaron (or could be moses, can't remember)
    e) a portion of manna

    an important thing to note about the "raiders" film - they have the carrying poles along the *long* sides, whereas they were actually along the *short* sides, not as shown.

    the scriptures do not speak of the return of the ark, but it can be deduced from the necessity of rebuilding the Temple (insha'Allah this can be achieved without damage to the dome of the rock and the al-aqsa mosque, but we have another tradition that could possibly allow for this) - there are various traditions, jewish, non-jewish a which speak of where the ark is now, including:

    a) a jewish tradition that the ark is hidden somewhere beneath the Temple Mount itself, which is why everyone is so sensitive about excavations by either the israeli architectectural authority or the waqf - religious jews are scared in case something gets damaged or stolen and muslims are scared as they see it as some sort of plot to undermine the haram as-sharif, which, incidentally, it would make absolutely no sort of sense to do as it is our holiest site! conspiracy theorists love to whip up misunderstandings about this, unfortunately.

    b) a jewish tradition that the ark is hidden somewhere in the judean desert; there are certain people who claim that it has been located by the mequbalim (the inner circle of the sages of the mystical schools) and will be revealed at the appropriate time. i personally doubt this, because of the sources concerned.

    c) a non-jewish tradition that the ark is in axum or somewhere else in ethiopia. this is a very old tradition and is believed by the ethiopian church and a few archaeologists. certainly they have something, but as nobody's allowed to see it it's very hard to tell.

    d) a general belief by many that it is somehow hidden away in the vatican (along with the treasures looted by the romans from the destruction of the second Temple, but as the ark went missing before the second Temple was built, it is hard to see how this occurred)

    there are other theories, from the unusual to the absolutely bonkers, but these are the main ones.

    b'shalom

    bananabrain
     
  8. Prober

    Prober Give Us This Day...

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    1 Kings 8:9 says that, at the time of Solomon's temple dedication, there was nothing in the ark save the two stone tablets.

    Aaron's rod that budded and the pot of manna are listed previously as having been in the Ark. I've always wondered where they went.
     
  9. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Indeed, that was the main purpose of the ark...and the word of God was law, and laid low all who attempted to defy it...
     
  10. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    as salaam aleykum bananabrain

    Thank you so much, very informative. May I ask some more questions please, am so fascinated.

    Is it correct that even the man carrying the Ark were not permitted to see it?

    Sorry I don't know about the rebuilding of the temple, is this a prophesy? So sorry but I need the idiots version as I know nothing of your faith. :eek:

    :eek: Ah yes Muslims do have a nasty habit of claiming everything as their own (an example being the chocolate Jesus (pbuh), I met Muslims who wanted to protest and really felt they were being more insulted than the Christians - go figure). I feel it is inevitable that a city with such religious symbolism for all Abrahamic religions will cause tensions to mount (insh'allah the Muslims don't cause a problem there).

    Oh I saw that on a documentary, isn't it the place where the poor chap (was he called the guardian?) has to spend his whole life and can never leave the garden? I don't mean this to sound rude but considering the Arks importance why don't the heads of the Jewish faith just ask to look inside the building? Or have I completely misunderstood the situation?

    Now this I would be tempted to believe, given their history of 'aquiring treasures'. Although I am also tempted to believe the theory that the pope will turn out to be Satan.

    May I also ask do you have any traditions as to what will happen when the Ark is found?

    shalom
     
  11. flowperson

    flowperson Oannes

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    Muslimwoman... Sometime ago there was a rather extensive discussion regarding the Ark/Arc on the New Age Forum. Search for "Arc of the Covenant" in the grey tool bar above and you will find it as it was presented late last year. Some of the materials are unconventional, but interesting nonetheless. Much of what I wrote was the result of extensive research at a college of Judaica library some years ago.

    There are also stories regarding implements used by the high priest in Ark rituals that are mirrored by activities of the founder of the Mormon Religion in the finger lakes region of New York state in the early 19th century, Joseph Smith. The urim and thummim are prominently mentioned as being used in his translation of the Golden Plates that he was led to discover, into the Book of Mormon.

    I always understood that the contents of the Ark were the fragments of Moses' stone tablets, an omer of manna, and a perpetually flowering almond branch that may well have been understood to have been Aaron's or Moses' staff.

    flow....:)
     
  12. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    Hi Flow

    Brilliant I shall go find it, thanks for that. What is it that makes the Ark so fascinating, is it the mystery of where it went?

    Salaam
     
  13. flowperson

    flowperson Oannes

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    Hi Muslimwoman...

    No. The research that I have done demonstrates to me that the greatest mystery is that the original Ark, which resided in the Holy of Holies of the Tent/Tabernacle in the desert at Shiloh, was designed, constructed, and functioned as a direct communications device between the high Priest and King of the Hebrews with the hidden G-d. When it ( and some believe the entire Tabernacle) were moved into Solomon's Temple in Jerusalem about 1,000 bce. it ceased to function in such a manner. However I may be mistaken here in my recollection in that the cessation of the Ark's functioning may have occurred when it was placed in the second Temple several hundred years later after the diaspora.

    Many people with engineering and science backgrounds believe that it may have functioned as a signal receiver which stored and operated accumulated petrovoltaic energies in ways to transmit light signals that were manipulated and "read" by the Priest using the ephod, urim, and thummim

    I believe that you'll find the particulars of most of this in the older threads that I referenced.

    flow....:)
     
  14. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    Hi Flow

    I wonder if it sat on the crossing point of negative and positive laylines? Have you read about that it blows my mind.

    Salaam
     
  15. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

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    although unfortunately some of the theories being discussed were, frankly, what mrs bananabrain refers to as "woo-woo".

    aleiqum salaam, m'dear. depends who it was. the only person even allowed into the Holy of Holies in the Temple was the high priest. when the ark was on the move it was carried by priests, but they carried it on the poles, or on a wagon. nobody actually touched it, opened it or looked inside it as far as i know.

    it is indeed. from isaiah, i think, although there are references to it all over the place in the later books of the TaNa"Kh (hebrew name for the bible, or "old testament" as the christians call it)

    no worries - feel free to take a look at Judaism 101 which covers the basics.

    yes, that can be annoying. but they're not the only ones!

    something like that. you'll have to ask the ethiopians, or read graham hancock's "the sign and the seal" which is quite good fun although not terribly credible from my point of view.

    firstly, we don't really have heads in that sense. there's no sanhedrin any more. well, there is, but it's a recent development and not authoritative right now. anyway, for all i know they have done and been told to bugger off. i don't think they believe that could possibly be the real thing.

    hah. i think you'll find that's wishful thinking from fundamentalist protestant conspiracy theorists.

    i'm not aware of one, but it would be terribly exciting, or possibly terribly, terribly dangerous.

    btw, you're in egypt, right? i understand the government is cracking down on the bloggers. do you read the sandmonkey? shocking what has happened to him and his friends.

    b'shalom

    bananabrain
     
  16. Dondi

    Dondi Active Member

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    Wasn't it the fact that the Ark was only to be carried via the poles (IAW Exodus 25), but because they put on a cart in improper transport the Ark became unsteady and thus Uzzah died trying to right it (2 Samuel 6)?
     
  17. flowperson

    flowperson Oannes

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    Muslimwoman...

    As Bananabrain's wife so aptly put it, what we have discussed here regarding the Ark of the Covenant may well all be "woo-woo", including petrovoltaics and "lay-lines".

    However we are allowed as individuals to read of the past and apply current knowledge to explain historically documented phenomena. If I'm not mistaken that's how the human species has progressed itself out of the caves and down from the trees over the past million years or so. The question is, what has this "progress" done to us, and in turn what have we done to the world in that process ? Sorry I'm older and cynical. Forgive me.

    salaam...flow....:cool:
     
  18. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    Mrs BB sounds like a damned sensible woman to me. :)

    BB it's like getting blood out of a stone. Am bursting with anticipation, what is the prophesy???????? Will give the link a look when I've had some sleep (I swear my hubby will run off with the girl next door if I don't spend less time on here and give him more attention :eek: )

    See, if it was a Muslim relic we would be there, big swords in hands, asking politely if we can have a quick peek. :D

    Speaking for myself, I wouldn't know whether to wet my knickers with excitment or fear (or would that be just with old age :confused: )

    No not heard anything, have you got a link to some info? Although it would take a lot to shock me after the things I've seen here.

    May I ask what the b stands for? Am I right in thinking shalom means peace?

    Salaam
     
  19. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    Hey I like talking about woo-woo, love the lay lines ones.

    You think you are old and cynical, wait til you get my 'what humans have done to the world' lecture. Quite frankly I believe humans are a Divine joke (don't tell G-d I said that, I'll be in such trouble). :eek:

    Salaam
     
  20. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

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    i believe it was something like that. i'd need to find out what the commentators have said, but that sounds like a plausible explanation.

    a true "woman of worth", as king solomon put it.

    well, have a look at isaiah chapter 2 for a start. i can't tell you exactly what the prophecy means of course, nobody can. that's prophecy for you. but obviously we have a view on what it is likely to mean.

    hah, that's for sure. but nobody takes much notice of what we think, which is weird when you consider how everyone claims we secretly run the whole world and so on. not much good that when we can't even get the ethiopian church to return our calls even after taking their jewish community off their hands. deary me.

    re sandmonkey, the whole sad story is at Rantings of a Sandmonkey - if you're in cairo, this was the results of that abortive demonstration in tahrir square. i believe some of the other egyptian bloggers are still locked up and goodness knows what's happening to the poor sods.

    indeed it does. "b'" as a prefix is "in" or "with" peace - like was-salaam.

    we've told G!D that in the past and got away with it. well, mostly. you only have to look at human reproduction to see the Divine sense of humour. or the duckbilled platypus.

    b'shalom

    bananabrain
     
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