Capital Punishment

Not trying to shock you... lol your a muslim lol.... I was trying to see if there was any compassion in you, obviously not.

He hasn't offended again obviously because he is freaking dead, but has every other person stopped? No?

Did I say I am for letting them "£$£"!! go? No, I said I am not for killing a person...

Again... I am not saying rape and killing is good am I? I am not attempting to glorify what they have done... But what you believe in is bullshit.. Killing is wrong no matter what....
 
17th Angel said:
I was trying to see if there was any compassion in you, obviously not.
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I am filled with compassion for these victims and their families and indeed the families of the criminals that commit these unspeakable acts. Views are very easy to hold when you are at a distance but when they come up close and personal they become blurred and not so easy to hold on to. For example, would you feel so compassionate toward these criminals if that little boy had been your child? His name was Peter by the way and he committed suicide at the age of 11. His parents divorced and his father blew the top of his head off with his Browning. I don't know what happened to his mother but I don't imagine it was a pretty story. These men each recieved heavy sentences but the first was released after just 7 years. I wonder whose child he lives by now?

That is not to say we should kill for retribution or with pleasure but if it protects one other boy and his family from this suffering then sorry but capital punishment gets my vote.
 
The inherent problem with capital punishment as I see it is too fold.

1. It reeks of a parent saying to their child 'Do as I say, not as I do.' This is utter hypocrisy, it simply is saying there are two sets of rules, one for us and one for you. This is unnacceptable to the human psyche and which causes the rule in our head to be eliminated and henceforth if the gov't murders, tortures, than it becomes acceptable for the masses to do so as well. In order to eliminate murder and torture it must be outlawed completely by all parties.


2. No justice system is without its foibles and innocent people (well maybe not innocent but innocent to the crime in which they are charged) go to prison all the time. Killing an innocent person is abominal injustice. With modern DNA testing we are already discovering people that the US has put to death after mutliple appeals and trials...only to find out now they were innocent of the crime. I cannot imagine how many innocent people are put to death in countries where capitol punishment is meted out quickly...only to find that it was some family vengence and false accusation.


It is repeatedly shown that the countries/states which have capital punishment have higher instances of capital crimes than other areas...

Why can we not learn?

MW, what happen to that religion you were gonna start?? By the two rules you stated capital punishment could not be allowed.
 
wow, i am truly stunned at both 17th and muslimwoman's stands on capital punishment. stunned because you both are like irony incarnated. living and breathing. on one hand, you have 17th, atheist, spurner of God's mercy to mankind, but yet his unconditional love for man is beyond my understanding. its like he is a Christ follower and doesn't even know it? is that possible? then you have muslimwoman, embracer of God's love to mankind but doesn't want to leave vengeance to God but wants to take it upon herself to exact vengeance on man.

17th, i truly admire you for your unconditional love towards man. me, as a Christ follower truly need to learn from you on this because i have trouble forgiving my own wife for crap she did in the past let alone forgiving someone for the atrocities one causes on his fellow man. i have a long way to go, man! i know we have our differences, but it is the love that you have for man that is very similar to how God loves us, despite our f**** ups towards each other. God bless you, man.

muslimwoman, my jaw is on the floor right now after reading your responses to how vengeance needs to be exacted on man, by man. wouldn't you think that vengeance belongs to God? history shows that eye for an eye isn't applied correctly. if a law isn't applied with mercy then it won't work. you are right, there isn't a single country on this planet that has a perfect judicial system. even ancient Israel couldn't get the judicial system correct. and that is because they were hard core God followers. they observed all of the commandments down to a "t" and they still backslid! they beheld God's miracles first hand and still...nothing. no one is righteous, no, not one. so really, who are we to exact vengeance? the only reason the judicial systems are the way they are is because they are allowed to and there is nothing we can do about right now. so why do we fret, then? we fret because we have trouble letting go of the past. we dwell on the past and it eats us up inside. i say let them do their worst to us, the weak God followers. let them do their worst. what is there to fear? God is on our side, no? and no matter what happens, you know that everyone on the day of Judgement will have to answer for their own sins, face to face with God. i don't blame you for feeling the way you do because following God is not an easy path, i really mean it when i say this, but this path is not for everyone. but we must persevere for God's sake. we must be a shining example for the ungodly so that they may have a chance to repent and perhaps turn to God. isn't that better? that an ungodly person repent and turn to God? and even if they don't repent, it doesn't matter, at least you did what is right. God bless you...

so my stance on capital punishment? i am totally against it. i am going to use an example, the execution of saddam husein. did anything good come out of that? name one good thing that came out of that and i will side on capital punishment. nothing has changed in iraq. the only thing that changed is that there is one less soul on this earth. we must forgive our enemies and bless them. we must do what is right and not let our wrath get the best of us. this is just my point of view and i know people won't agree with me and i will probably get warned about prosetilyzing, but we are all different, thus giving each and everyone of us a different state of mind. well, thanks for reading and God bless you all....
 
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Wil

Oh no my religions first moral dilemma :eek: How do you choose, protect the innocent or protect the guilty? As I say I do not believe a society exists on the planet that has a decent enough system to qualify for applying capital punishment. As I said, when it gets up close and personal the lines do get blurred but having sat in that room with Peter and his parents my line is very blurred. I have no desire for vengeance or retribution, I am not G-d or His tool of justice, yet I lose sleep most nights wondering where these men are now, whose children are they living near and knowing fine well that the current system is totally reactive and unable to protect others from these monsters. If I read in the paper tomorrow that these men had done this again to another child would I feel guilt - yes, I was a part of the process that failed to protect society from these people.

Leo

Please read my posts again, then tell me where I have said we should do this for vengeance? My first post on this thread was this:

Sorry but I agree with capital punishment in cases where people are a continued menace to society. The problem I have with it is that it can be, and here often is, abused. To have a system of capital punishment you would need a society that is totally unbiased and uncorruptable - show me where that is and I am moving there tomorrow.

I have at no point said there is such a society, as I believe one does not exist - therefore I cannot agree with capital punishment until such a society exists. However, that does not change my stance on the need to protect the innocent.

Tell me honestly, how would you feel if one of the three men I talked about lived in your street? Would you sleep well at night or would you sleep with a gun or knife under your pillow and wake everytime your child made a noise in the night? It is purely about the lesser of two evils. If my soul must burn in hell for eternity, that one innocent soul was protected from such people then so be it.

It is so easy to say killing is wrong, and you hear me say it often enough, but there is always an odd exception to the rule. If a group of lunatics came to your town and started openly raping and killing women and children, would you stand by and read the Bible to them or would you do whatever it took to protect the innocent - including killing?

I put it to you that you could kill in self defense (of yourself or of your family) and if you say you could not then I am sorry but I believe you misunderstand human nature. You would not do this for vengeance but out of fear and the primeval need to protect th innocent.
 
LeoSalinas22 said:
17th, i truly admire you for your unconditional love towards man. me, as a Christ follower truly need to learn from you on this because i have trouble forgiving my own wife for crap she did in the past let alone forgiving someone for the atrocities one causes on his fellow man. i have a long way to go, man! i know we have our differences, but it is the love that you have for man that is very similar to how God loves us, despite our f**** ups towards each other. God bless you, man.
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Leo, I have said it before, to be forgiven.... That is so powerful, seriously it is the most awesome thing ever, sure there is love that is great too, but without forgiving first you cannot grow to love another.... I have been forgiven by others for being an idiot.... The feeling I felt was amazing, relife... That second chance, that terrible feeling growing in the pit of your gut.... Vanished.... I have learnt from being forgiven and watching others.... My mother at times can be quite grudgeful... Holds on to small situations where someone crossed her in a very minor way... Only the other day she was complaining again about something that happened over a year ago between her and a work friend... I just thought, where is the progress? The person that err'd you, even said they were sorry, but you cling to this.... And you are the only one suffering... Open up accept that persons apology.... It will be better. Anyone, everyone, deserves to be forgiven. Maybe minor, maybe major... But love is the only thing that solves anything... More hate, violence, killing..... It will increase this and it will never peak. I have said I believe it will be impossible... But, just if, just if everyone could learn to accept and forgive... We would have one beautiful world. I sadly just cannot see that.

Muslimwoman, I see you didn't comment on the innocent man that was killed..... So answer me this, who is the judge of right and wrong? And controller of life? Who has the authority to say this life should live or this life should be taken?
 
17th Angel said:
Muslimwoman, I see you didn't comment on the innocent man that was killed..... So answer me this, who is the judge of right and wrong? And controller of life? Who has the authority to say this life should live or this life should be taken?
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I keep saying this, there is no system in the world today that is uncorruptable or 100% safe so such a place does not exist. I am simply defending the principle that the innocent must be protected. Perhaps I would feel differently if life actually meant life in the UK but 7 years for raping, torturing and (although suicide) murdering a small child - does that protect other children? This is my issue, the protection of others against those that are a danger to society.

A part of human society is that there must be laws, rules and morals and some must take responsibility for upholding those and yes if need be I would make that judgement if I was sure there was no other way to protect the innocent.

My comment on the innocent man that was killed is that the moment it was proven he was innocent the capital punishment law in the USA (I assume it was the US) should have been suspended and put under international review. When the system was shown to be flawed the law should have been repealed.

As for your comments to Leo on forgiveness, I agree completely and in most cases we must forgive, if for no other reason it is the only way for the victims to move on with their lives. However, forgiveness does nothing to protect society from certain individuals who will continue to rape, torture and murder the innocent - no matter how much therapy and forgiveness they are given.

Do you think Myra Hindley should have been released? What evidence does anyone have that a woman that recorded herself laughing as children were tortured and murdered, would not hurt another child? What about Brady or Manson, Haigh or Black?

Show me a law that means such people are held in prison for the remainder of their life without the possibility of being let out or hurting anyone again and I shall sleep well at night.
 
Muslimwoman said:
I keep saying this, there is no system in the world today that is uncorruptable or 100% safe so such a place does not exist. I am simply defending the principle that the innocent must be protected. Perhaps I would feel differently if life actually meant life in the UK but 7 years for raping, torturing and (although suicide) murdering a small child - does that protect other children? This is my issue, the protection of others against those that are a danger to society.
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If life meant life, yes that would work... And then if found later by advancement in technology and such or other physical evidence... To be innocent, let them out.... If you murder that person it's a bit late isn't? Also you seem to fail to reconise some of these people are ILL, they need medical help.... And yes, you can quote me on this part; Some of these events are NOT the killer/raper/whatever's fault.

Freeing them? Does that give protection to other possible victims? No? Yes? You couldn't say for certain, in some cases it could be either answer... As I keep saying I am not telling you... "Oh your forgiven, go on, back into freedom...." There should be punishment/medical help/and so on given to these people.


Muslimwoman said:
A part of human society is that there must be laws, rules and morals and some must take responsibility for upholding those and yes if need be I would make that judgement if I was sure there was no other way to protect the innocent.
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So you do not believe that judgement is up to YOUR god... Not you... Who the pluck are you to say someone deserves to die? Seriously, listen to yourself you would then be a killer too, and no better than them... Worse then most of them as most of them CANNOT help what they do.

Muslimwoman said:
My comment on the innocent man that was killed is that the moment it was proven he was innocent the capital punishment law in the USA (I assume it was the US) should have been suspended and put under international review. When the system was shown to be flawed the law should have been repealed.

As for your comments to Leo on forgiveness, I agree completely and in most cases we must forgive, if for no other reason it is the only way for the victims to move on with their lives. However, forgiveness does nothing to protect society from certain individuals who will continue to rape, torture and murder the innocent - no matter how much therapy and forgiveness they are given.
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*sighes* Again.... Lock them up... But, do not kill them. HELP THEM.

Muslimwoman said:
Do you think Myra Hindley should have been released? What evidence does anyone have that a woman that recorded herself laughing as children were tortured and murdered, would not hurt another child? What about Brady or Manson, Haigh or Black?
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Hindley was brainwashed by her boyfriend into most of those things, then became as corrupt and was a SICK person... I mean sick as in ILL... Do you really think any of the names you have given are people of sanity?

Muslimwoman said:
Show me a law that means such people are held in prison for the remainder of their life without the possibility of being let out or hurting anyone again and I shall sleep well at night
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Twilight zone..... I am not saying there is a law... There SHOULD be though.. The law if flawed, obviously, it has been made by humans.... Most things made by humans have flaws, errors and eventually break down after time....
 
17th Angel said:
... I have learnt from being forgiven and watching others.... My mother at times can be quite grudgeful... Holds on to small situations where someone crossed her in a very minor way...
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This is truly the blessing of life....we get to learn from those we admire and look upto...sometimes how to act and sometimes how not to! But it is upto us to find the lesson in those we deal with....it is as easy to learn from negative examples as it is from postive ones.
MW said:
but I agree with capital punishment in cases where people are a continued menace to society. The problem I have with it is that it can be, and here often is, abused. To have a system of capital punishment you would need a society that is totally unbiased and uncorruptable - show me where that is and I am moving there tomorrow.
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You've proved our point. a. no system is infallable and justice is not meted out equally hence capitol punishment must be abolished until it is done so. b. capital punishment is not the answer to protecting society from people who are a continued menace...seperating them from society is the solution.
 
17th Angel said:
Also you seem to fail to reconise some of these people are ILL, they need medical help.... And yes, you can quote me on this part; Some of these events are NOT the killer/raper/whatever's fault.
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The degree of a criminals sanity is not the issue here, the protection of the innocent is.

17th Angel said:
Freeing them? Does that give protection to other possible victims? No? Yes? You couldn't say for certain, in some cases it could be either answer... As I keep saying I am not telling you... "Oh your forgiven, go on, back into freedom...." There should be punishment/medical help/and so on given to these people.
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Okay let us take the example of the lady that was raped and murdered I think last year. The offender had been found guilty of rape 6 times, each time he became increasingly violent so to my mind murder was inevitable if he was released a 6th time. What does it say about out justice system that this maniac was released 6 times - how long did he spend in prison each time? Should we say to the ladies family "well we could not prove he would do it again, maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't"? Nothing is a given in this life other than death but what was done by society to protect women from this man? Nothing, his perceived rights came before hers.

17th Angel said:
So you do not believe that judgement is up to YOUR god... Not you... Who the pluck are you to say someone deserves to die? Seriously, listen to yourself you would then be a killer too, and no better than them... Worse then most of them as most of them CANNOT help what they do.
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Final judgement is always up to G-d but does that mean society should allow ourselves to be victims? Should we do nothing to protect our innocents?

Now prove to me that "most of them CANNOT help what they do". I have worked with these people and have no such proof. What I do know is that MOST of them have no morals, no remorse and no intention of changing.

17th Angel said:
*sighes* Again.... Lock them up... But, do not kill them.
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*sighes* have I said anything different? I only agreed with the principle of capital punishment in a system that is 100% safe, which I accept does not exist in this world and where there is a continued and obvious danger to society. You give me an international law that means these people will never see the outside of a prison cell again and I shall throw a party.

17th Angel said:
HELP THEM.
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What about helping the innocent?

17th Angel said:
Hindley was brainwashed by her boyfriend into most of those things, then became as corrupt and was a SICK person... I mean sick as in ILL... Do you really think any of the names you have given are people of sanity?
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Show me any proof that a person can be 'brainwashed' into abducting, sexually abusing, torturing and murdering children. Yes it was a good story "I loved my boyfriend and he made me do it". Hindley was sentenced in 1966 and died in 2002. That is 36 years of tests to decide whether she was ILL or not and was never declared mentally ill or incompetant. I wonder why that is?

Ian Brady wrote a book on the criminal profiling of Henry Lee Lucas - he must have been totally gaga. He was declared insane in 1985, yet in 1987 he confessed to yet 2 more murders and remembered where Pauline Reads body was buried. It seems insanity does not dull the literary ability or memory.

17th Angel said:
Twilight zone..... I am not saying there is a law... There SHOULD be though.. The law if flawed, obviously, it has been made by humans.... Most things made by humans have flaws, errors and eventually break down after time....
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Of course there SHOULD be but our legal system is actually going in the opposite direction. We are protecting criminals, burglars are actually winning money from their victims because they hurt themselves breaking into peoples homes. Rapists and murderers are let out onto our streets with virtually no monitoring. What next, rapists will sue because they got crotch itch or murderers will sue because the victim got blood on their clothes? Where is the protection for society?
 
wil said:
You've proved our point. a. no system is infallable and justice is not meted out equally hence capitol punishment must be abolished until it is done so.
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No Wil I was proving my own point that no system is infallable, therefore capital punisment should be abolished until such a system exists. My principle is simply that society must be protected from these people and in an infallable society that means in some cases removal from society by capital punishment. How many murderers actually commit murder in prison?

wil said:
b. capital punishment is not the answer to protecting society from people who are a continued menace...seperating them from society is the solution.
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Correct, if that means seperating them until they die. So why do our societies not do this? If we cannot or will not protect society from these people then, given an infallable system, they must be removed by other means. All I am saying is that an innocents right to life must come before those that repeatedly remove life from the innocent.
 
I belive in capital punishment for rock spider ( kid diddlers). Its the only guarantee that they wont re offend. Guilty. ok , out you go. out the back. Sedation in the bloodstream, followed by the permanent sleep. He'll never do it again. Guaranteed
 
greymare said:
I belive in capital punishment for rock spider ( kid diddlers). Its the only guarantee that they wont re offend. Guilty. ok , out you go. out the back. Sedation in the bloodstream, followed by the permanent sleep. He'll never do it again. Guaranteed
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But others still will, killing isn't a solution... Out of sight out of mind, kind of thing going on there.... What if that was the wrong person and there is someone else out there?? You killed an innocent and again child molestation will still be commited... There are many ways, to guarantee he doesn't reoffend... But, I have decided I am flogging a dead horse in this thread :) So yeah....
 
I think I'll have to go with 17th on this, though I disagree with him about how serial murderers/rapists need to be shown "compassion".

But who are we to decide to take a life? We don't even have the power to create life, so imagine the arrogance of one who deems it his place to take one. Lives are just not ours to judge.

I see MW's point about protecting the innocent. I am all for that but killing is not the only option. I vote for lifetime imprisonment. Unfortunately the law is incredibly flawed. There's no such thing as (like MW said), " a law that means such people are held in prison for the remainder of their life without the possibility of being let out or hurting anyone again "

We don't have the right to kill. Even as punishment.
(Except of course under direct threat to self/loved ones, as defense. It's different of course under controlled situations. One should never make a conscious, calculated decision to kill. It's inhuman.)
 
Id do it, and you wouldnt even have to pay me. And yes, there probably would be some innoncent person found guilty and lose their life. Collateral damage. Yeah, its harsh. But seriously, been there, done that.
 
Agree with 17th. Capital punishment doesn't reduce crime for the simple fact that if somebody has a physchological disorder that makes them want to kill somebody or whatever they will do it whatever the consequences, they will not care about their own outcome cause they are mentally unstable! If they are a continued threat to society lock them up for life and give them stimulation inside where they can do no harm to anybody. Nobody has the right to play god.

P.S. 17th, your avatar's crack me up, one of the reasons I love coming on the forum as you change them often and I look forward with anticipation to the next. Once again you don't disappoint with this one! LOL
 
Penguin ;) tune in next time... You NEVER know what whacky avatar this guy will have....

But for now I present; The lord and saviour, Jesus christ..... Not only is he the saviour of all of mankind, you thought that was enough, but then he comes in with some stunning dance moves, the creator of the funky chicken! All hail the lord of the dance....

(appologise for that short brief hijacking.... Normal service will now resume.)
 
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