The Nephilim Race

Discussion in 'Ancient History and Mythology' started by Rouge47, Apr 26, 2005.

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Read the thread and then decide: do you believe in the Nephilim Race?

  1. Yes

    54.8%
  2. No

    45.2%
  1. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    I ran a search for Giant Skeletons and Photos of, and I found some pretty interesting things. A couple were "Urban Legend" leg pullers, but most had actual authenticated photos, some dating back to 1850. Many of these "giant" discoveries were right in the Americas.

    v/r

    Q
     
  2. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Kindest Regards, Q!

    I did a little more looking today. Most of the stuff I found supporting "giants" was more of the conspiracy / innuendo variety of pseudo-scholarship. For example, I saw reference to the Burdick print in Glenrose Texas, which we have already discussed in another thread at length, and know to be a forgery.

    I could have been all over the place if I wanted, so since I saw a common reference to a fellow named Cyrus Thomas as head of the Bureau of Ethnology and a report published in the late 1800's on the Mound Builders in the Mid-West, I focused in on that, trying to find the reference so many were alluding to. Supposedly there were a number of "giant" skeletons found buried together. After some looking around, the only time the search turned up the word "giant" in his publication had to do with the Mound Builders eating, among other things, giant turtle. I saw no reference to giant human beings, although as I was pressed for time I only skimmed a portion of the publication, but the word "giant" was highlighted, and I did not see it turn up again.

    I am wondering if this publication is being "mis-quoted" and passed around by pseudo-scholars.

    I spent a little time looking at the Glenn A. Black Laboratory of Archeology, supported by Indiana University, and again I saw nothing to note giant human skeletons within the purview of the Mound Builder sites they oversee.

    I find the Mound Builders fascinating as a culture, but it is misleading to take something we know so little about to begin with and attach all sorts of imaginations to it to further whatever agendas.

    Not to mention, proving a negative, or in this case that giants "do not" exist, is impossible due to the parameters of logic. So, again I adjure, would those who claim "scientific" proof of this please step forward with their proofs. I have an interest in this subject that goes way back, but even then what "evidences" I have are circumstantial and hearsay. I have yet to find any acknowledged evidence, so if there are photos in a reputable museum, would someone point me to them? Please.
     
  3. path_of_one

    path_of_one Embracing the Mystery

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    Glanced at the website about the giants. My first thought is... pseudo-science. Second thought- the skulls from Peru are not a mystery. Many ancient civilizations strapped boards to their infants' heads to shape the skulls in various ways. This was considered beautiful- like getting cosmetic surgery. They were just normal people whose skulls were fantastically shaped as infants.

    We have to remember that people can alter their looks in amazing ways.

    If, in a thousand years, someone discovers pictures of:
    The lizardman www.thelizardman.com
    or
    The tiger-man http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/photogalleries/localnews694/1.html

    for example, I would hope that scientists would be intelligent and skeptical enough to realize these are normal human beings, not mutants or aliens or angel hybrids or somesuch.
     
  4. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Well, here is some interesting things.

    http://www.stevequayle.com/Giants/pics/giants.html

    http://www.tracone.com/the_unexplained/skeletons/index.htm

    v/r

    Q
     
  5. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Could also be Marfan disease...

    v/r

    Q
     
  6. Tao_Equus

    Tao_Equus Interfaith Forums

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    To be honest after some 4 months offline I am suprised that any debate on this subject is not long exhausted. Anybody know where the thread on Leprechauns can be found? :p
     
  7. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Well Irelandforever.com might prove useful...;)
     
  8. path_of_one

    path_of_one Embracing the Mystery

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    At least Leprechauns and fae are thought to be from some other plane of existence, and so we don't expect to find any material remains of their culture and bodies.

    As for the giants- there are genetic conditions that result in giantism and dwarfism. I don't understand how it proves the existence of actual angel-human hybrids. Scientists understand the causes and types of giantism in people. Why is this something considered supernatural in any way? Extraordinary, yes. Supernatural, no. Consider that there are many human conditions that are odder than this- various conjoined twins, for example. I'm not really understanding how rare conditions in humans can be understood to be evidence of supernatural hybrids, especially in the face of modern science and medicine.
     
  9. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    Giantism and dwarfism as genetic conditioins, plus head-wrapping, foot-binding and such ... I would concur that none of this is good evidence (or evidence at all) for the Lemurian-Atlantean Giants.

    Sorry, juantoo3, et al, my own evidence that the nephilim, gibborim, or grigori actually existed falls back, foremost, upon those portions of the Hebrew Old Testament. I know that's not good enough for many people, but it's good enough to get me started in my own inquiry ... and to stimulate my interest. Naturally, we are free to disregard such accounts, as including the dimensions of King whatever-his-name's bed as pure superstition, error and utter nonsense. You may do as you like, but I take it as valid testimony ...

    I think I could easily supply the testimony of several credible sources who have both seen actual bones firsthand, and have seen direct accounts from various ancient writings as reputable or more so than the Hebrew Old Testament and which corroborate the accounts of the nephilim - as specimens of an earlier race of Humanity, not as "spacemen." I trust to these other accounts, and examples of eyewitness testimony, and they go a long ways to fairly well "sealing it" for me.

    Time will tell, I do believe, that the authors of these various works, and those who have been fortunate enough to see the bones in a certain underground museum, were not either given to exaggeration, or interested in creating/perpetuating a superstition ...

    In the meantime, if I find any 12-foot femurs in my back yeard, I will post about it here first, before I sell them to the British Museum for 17 million each ... :p

    namaskar,

    taijasi
     
  10. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    There is irony in people now adays having a gene that allows for six fingers and six toes, as well as double rows of teeth within the jaw. That in and of itself is not much but an amnomoly...however, it is something written in the Bible as a "marker" for those born of Nephilim in the days of old.

    Just a thought.

    v/r

    Q
     
  11. Mike56

    Mike56 New Member

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    :rolleyes:
    no I dont think you are wrong.....
     
  12. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Kindest Regards, Tai!

    Yet, this raises the issue of blind faith. It seems one of the most common charges levelled against mainstream Christianity is that they believe with no evidence, and so should shift their views towards a more non-mainstream view that has scientific evidence to support it. Yet, when pressed, one learns that scientific evidence does not truly exist, we are still talking about hearsay and allegation. Mainstream Christianity already has that much, and it is sufficient. Likewise, non-mainstreamers are just as blind in their faith without any credible evidence to support their positions.

    Have you found those scrolls yet? I humbly suggest they do not exist, therefore...
     
  13. Tao_Equus

    Tao_Equus Interfaith Forums

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    This is the problem with literalism in trying to understand the Bible, or any ancient text for that matter. The superstitions of the age are apt to get included into a topic such as this. We have been made, by design or by chance, with the faculty of reason and with the ability to look criticaly at what we know, and to re-evaluate it in light of new information. Frankly there is insufficient evidence in the fossil record or from burial remains to support the idea that a seperate race of 'giants' ever existed. Given this lack of evidence I feel it entirely credible to view the few lines of historical reference to them as being born of superstition and with the origin as a misunderstanding of the range of genetic possibilities inherrant in man. As such any 'marker' is no more a reality than someone with a mole or a wart being a witch.

    2c's

    David
     
  14. China Cat Sunflower

    China Cat Sunflower Nimrod

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    Look at this text. It doesn't actually say that the offspring of the "sons of God" and the "daughters of men" were giants. It says that there were giants in the earth, and later the hybrid breeding when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men " resulted in " mighty men which were of old, men of renown."

    Chris
     
  15. Rouge47

    Rouge47 Follower of Christ

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    Nice site. However, its credits are very short.

    I found some interesting research relating back to the early argument of this thread if the Nephilim were related to the Neanderthal.

    Here is the link:
    http://www.wayfareronline.com/news/2003/october/oct10-062.html

    A lot to read, but I found it interesting.
     
  16. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    Thanks for highlighting this, Chris. Notice it says, "came in unto." Hmmm, I think the following might elucidate ...

    The Secret Doctrine will call this the "sin of the mindless," and it can be googled (in quotes). The first hits, from W. Scott-Elliot's Atlantis and Lost Lemuria, gives the short presentation from the Stanzas of Dzyan (Secret Doctrine). The next few hits make reference to footnotes from Alice Bailey's works, which again refer back to H.P. Blavatsky:
    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]The sin of the Mindless. See S. D., II, 195, 201. This sin has to do with the period of the Separation of the Sexes in the early third root-race, the Lemurian. The same historical fact is hinted at also in the Bible in Genesis VI, 2:4.

    [/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]"They (the sexes) had already separated before the ray of divine reason had enlightened the dark region of their hitherto slumbering minds, and had sinned. That is to say, they had committed evil unconsciously by producing an effect which was unnatural."[/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]See also S. D., II, 721, 728.[/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]It is worth pointing out, at least from the esoteric standpoint, that actually there were two instances of the "sin of the mindless," and the first is the one which is here referred to, and which is truly relevant to the Lemurian giants - as referenced in the Bible.[/FONT]

    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]The second shameful act occurred later, in Atlantean times, and this time it occurred with full conscious knowledge - on the part of the "Spiritual man" - and for this, we still pay today a heavy karma. But in neither case is Humanity as such technically responsible, karmically speaking, because in the first case, it was the very condition of our "mindlessness" (or LACK of intelligence) which allowed the sin to occur, and in the latter, it was the spiritual being - and not our terrestrial intelligence or consciousness, which was still (as even now, all too often) ... quite undeveloped. This is explained by Basil Crump in an online commentary, as follows:[/FONT]
    A Third Class of [spiritual beings, our Souls] deferred incarnating until the Fourth or Atlantean Root Race ... It was in this Race that the worst sexual karma was incurred, for the Atlanteans renewed the sin of the Mindless, this time with full knowledge and responsibility because they possessed Manas. [Mind, spiritually regarded] Some of the still semi-divine beings took entirely human wives in whom lower, more material beings had incarnated. They had no mind, only animal instinct, and were descendants of the half-animal monsters bred by the sin of the Mindless in the Third Race. [Lemuria] The anthropoid apes are the degenerate descendants of this renewed and conscious sin; and further it is stated (S.D.II. 303) that in this case it was "the Spiritual being who sinned, the Spirit element being still the 'Master' principle in man, in those days," and that (S.D.II. 303) "many of us are now working off the effects of the evil Karmic causes produced by us in Atlantean bodies."

    The most significant statement of all in this connection occurs on p. 228, Vol. II.: "As to those 'Sons of Wisdom' who had 'deferred' their incarnation till the Fourth Race, which was already stained (physiologically) with sin and impurity, they produced a terrible cause, the Karmic result of which weighs on them to this day. It was produced in themselves, and they became the carriers of that seed of iniquity for aeons to come, because the bodies they had to inform had become defiled through their own procrastination." (See verses 32, 36.)

    "This was the "Fall of the Angels" because of their rebellion against Karmic Law. The 'fall of man' was no fall for he was irresponsible."

    It is clear, then that we are the "carriers of that seed of iniquity for aeons to come, and this explains why we have such an awful struggle with the sex impulse in our bodies and lower minds, which take a thousand forms, many more subtle than the mere physical impulse. It is these latter which have given rise to so many perversions of practice and doctrine in regard to sex ...

    The terrible and conscious abuse of sex by the Atlanteans led on to the worship of the human body and finally of the sex principle in itself, which survives to-day in all the degraded forms of [some] religions ...
    Alas, I'm afraid that many Christians are in for a shock ... to consider that their very `Lucifer,' bearer of Light, is none other than Mind itself, the Light principle, the Spark as it illumines lower man! Sighhhh .... not at all what Mother Church teaches us, yet how could she at one and the same time advocate a terrible & dangerous adversary, yet also inform us that this very Being dwells within us, inseparably, as the Spark of Mind (and thus Higher consciousness) itself! :eek:

    No no, it is no small wonder the Christian recoils, yet in time, s/he shall discover TRUTH! In all fairness, it is helpful to say, that Prometheus did not simply steal this fire that it might ensoul our lesser being, and illumine us upon the Way ... for the very Purpose for our descent here into matter (as the Gnostics point out) was to experience, learn, master these worlds, and Ascend (or emerge from matter, returning to Spirit)! And this cannot be without the complementary action of the CHRIST principle, which dwells within us one world higher than Light, or the active principle of Manas (mind). Here, then, we find no contradiction with the notion that, at the appointed hour, Christ does confront Lucifer, defeats Him, and from the depths of the world of sin & death (verily, Hell itself) ... conquers, is Resurrected (into the fullness and effulgence of Spirit), and Ascends to His Father in Highest Heaven!

    No contradiction, no confusion, and no need to invent a misleading theology that is destined to leave us in a state of shock & dismay once we finally begin to see ... :( I just wish the grave errors of the clergy (of the many religions) over time, had not been so perpetrated and foisted upon us, as we truly have inherited - their Monster. All this, as if our own Human Karma (bound up with our Divine Progenitors, because of our relationship with them) ... from the periods mentioned above, were not enough! Alas, we cannot pull the poor, wretched, miserable "sinner" (as he has been taught to so regard himself) from his self-made prison, against his will - nor would that be helpful! Only time, and prayer, may free him now ...

    I shall surely draw fire for stating so boldly what I know to be true, yet consider, we usually resist most readily & vociferously what we least would like to contemplate as even the tiniest of possibilities ... and here, as elsewhere, I would encourage a scientific and scholarly approach, not one of emotional reaction. In the very least, allow me my silly delusions :rolleyes: - and if you must, just say you disagree. ;) Hey, at least you don't have to go out and kill a woolly mammoth for your breakfast, which is about what our nephilim ancestors probably had to do! :p

    Namaskar,


    taijasi
     
  17. Rouge47

    Rouge47 Follower of Christ

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    Giants: (1.) Heb. nephilim, meaning "violent" or "causing to fall" (Gen 6:4). These were the violent tyrants of those days, those who fell upon others. The word may also be derived from a root signifying "wonder," and hence "monsters" or "prodigies." In Num 13:33 this name is given to a Canaanitish tribe, a race of large stature, "the sons of Anak." The Revised Version, in these passages, simply transliterates the original, and reads "Nephilim."
    (2.) Heb. rephaim, a race of giants (Deu 3:11) who lived on the east of Jordan, from whom Og was descended. They were probably the original inhabitants of the land before the immigration of the Canaanites. They were conquered by Chedorlaomer (Gen 14:5), and their territories were promised as a possession to Abraham (15:20). The Anakim, Zuzim, and Emim were branches of this stock. In Job 26:5 (R.V., "they that are deceased; " marg., "the shades," the "Rephaim") and Isa 14:9 this Hebrew word is rendered (A.V.) "dead." It means here "the shades," the departed spirits in Sheol. In 2 Sa 21:16, 18, 20, 33, "the giant" is (A.V.) the rendering of the singular form ha raphah, which may possibly be the name of the father of the four giants referred to here, or of the founder of the Rephaim. The Vulgate here reads "Arapha," whence Milton (in Samson Agonistes) has borrowed the name "Harapha." (also 1 Ch 20:5,6,8; Deu 2:11,20; 3:13; Jos 15:8, etc., where the word is similarly rendered "giant.") It is rendered "dead" in (A.V.) (Psa 88:10; Pro 2:18; 9:18; 21:16); in all these places the Revised Version marg. has "the shades." (See also Isa 26:14.)
    (3.) Heb. 'Anakim (Deu 2:10,11,21; Jos 11:21,22; 14:12,15; Num 13:33; 13:22; Jos 15:14), a nomad race of giants descended from Arba (Jos 14:15), the father of Anak, that dwelt in the south of Palestine near Hebron (Gen 23:2; Jos 15:13). They were a Cushite tribe of the same race as the Philistines and the Egyptian shepherd kings. David on several occasions encountered them (2 Sa 21:15-22). From this race sprung Goliath (1 Sa 17:4).
    (4.) Heb. 'emin, a warlike tribe of the ancient Canaanites. They were "great, and many, and tall, as the Anakims" (Gen 14:5; Deu 2:10,11).
    (5.) Heb. Zamzummim (q.v.), Deut 2:20 so called by the Amorites.
    (6.) Heb. gibbor (Job 16:14), a mighty one, i.e., a champion or hero. In its plural form (gibborim) it is rendered "mighty men" (2 Sa 23:8-39; 1 Ki 1:8; 1 Ch 11:9-47; 29:24.) The band of six hundred whom David gathered around him when he was a fugitive were so designated. They were divided into three divisions of two hundred each, and thirty divisions of twenty each. The captians of the thirty divisions were called "the thirty," the captains of the two hundred "the three," and the captain over the whole was called "chief among the captains" (2 Sa 23:8). The sons born of the marriages mentioned in Gen 6:4 are also called by this Hebrew name.
     
  18. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Kindest Regards, Paul James!

    Good points! I had thought to get out the Strong's and the Interlinear, but I suspect you got it pretty well covered with your post.
     
  19. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    As I sit listening to one of Bach's more melodius and flowing of compositions, a certain someone reminds me of something very important. If anyone happened to read my post from yesterday, you may (or may not) have been confronted with an unusual notion in the 2nd half. I was too. :eek:

    Maybe a different image would have served better to suggest our condition after "the Fall." Permit a small allegory, with symbolism of my own choosing, please:
    If you have seen The Golden Child, with Eddie Murphy, then this may make some sense. There is a scene where Eddie Murphy is brought to visit an oracle of sorts, whom I think he calls "the Dragon Lady" (he makes a joke later about how she need to get out more, loosen up or something :rolleyes:).

    Anyway, she is always behind a screen, or veil ("no mortal man hath ever me unveiled," says Isis). Well, she's like Manas, or the spark of divine mind within us all, "fallen" into incarnation. Consider that she is cearly Good, for though mysterious, she is an oracle, and she answers questions to help & guide our protagonist on his Way. This unlikely hero (aha!), has agreed to help find the Golden Child ("unless ye make yourselves as little children ..."), and this is the Christ, even Christ within.

    The relationship between the `Dragon Lady' and the Golden Child is obviously one of sympathy, inasmuch as we would directly relate them, yet clearly they represent different energies, or Energetic Presences. They are complementary, though one represents the Goal, Purpose or objective ... while the other contributes, yet is ultimately a means to an end.
    Hmmm, sounds like Kabbalah to me, but the reason for my 2nd post (this one), is Torah. :)

    So in simplest terms, I could have simply said (as some Christians would find much easier on the ears), that even after the Fall, we are not without the presence of the Holy Spirit ... nor are we without the Christ. We should ever be ready to reconsider the signficance of the allegory of the Garden of Eden, especially as this relates to the topic at hand. ;)

    There is a very lengthy explanation of the episode of the Gibborrim, as Paul James has posted in (6) above (Biblical reference), provided in one of the Teachings of the Eastern Masters. The allegory is explained in detail, as Jesus is shown a captain of three, and Christ the "Chief among captains." Still, for me, the mysteries remain ...

    Anyway, apologies if the religious imagery was more than was useful earlier!

    Respectfully,

    andrew (taijasi)
     
  20. China Cat Sunflower

    China Cat Sunflower Nimrod

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    Well, I'm not sure how to respond without writing an epic tome! I personally see the Fall of man as a necessary step toward emancipation as conscious human beings. There is a sequence of seperations apparent in the Genesis myth. God divides himself in order to attain duality so he (it/she) can create. One part stays at home and remains the Alpha and Omega, the motionless essence (or whatever). The other part is the Creator (demiurge?). The Creator creates by seperating things. The dry ground appears after it is seperated from the firmament...etc. (I don't want to bore you). But in a state of duality there needs to be an oppositional force. Satan! Satan talks Eve into eating the fruit, which she must in order to attain Mind. Eve shares with Adam.

    But on a lower level, Satan represents the terrestrial opposition that makes electricity possible. Now, the sawing of sinews upon bone in our bodies, as well as all the activities we perform during our daily period of wakefulness generate electricity. We need electricity within us to make our nerves do their job, not to mention our brains. But electricity kills us slowly. that's what causes us to age and die. That's why we need to sleep: to let the excess electrical charge wear off. So you can see how the wages of "sin", through Satan is death.

    Enough for now.

    Chris
     

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